Bare Bones Banter - Michael's Ovation

In this heartfelt episode of 'Bare Bones Banter with the Gaster Girls,' hosts Christine and Sarah interview board members of Michael's Ovation, a nonprofit dedicated to honoring the memory of Michael Schaffer, who died by suicide at the age of 14. The conversation covers Michael's life, his humor, and his love for music, reading, and animals. They dive deep into their emotions, discussing their initial struggles and the eventual creation of the nonprofit. The episode also highlights the importance of talking about mental health, reaching out to others, and the various impactful projects and scholarships funded by Michael's Ovation to promote the causes Michael loved. The guests emphasize the necessity of open dialogue about mental health and the powerful role of community and support during tragic times.

How to find mental health help when you're struggling. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists
https://washingtoncountyhumanservices.com/agencies/behavioral-health-developmental-services
https://www.alleghenycounty.us/Services/Human-Services-DHS/Publications/Resource-Guides
Apps - Just search mental health where you get your apps.
EAP programs are a great place to look for help!!

Additional Resources (Sports Related):
https://globalsportmatters.com/health/2020/12/04/mental-health-resources-2/

Transcript

0:22

Hello and welcome to Bare Bones Banter with the Gaster Girls. She stayed quiet through the whole intro. That's all the intro I got right now. Well done, Christine. Applause for you. That's okay because I've recorded an intro for all of the Bare Bones Banter episodes and it'll just play at the beginning. Does it talk? Does it say, hi, welcome to the Bare Bones Banter? Then why did you let me do that? I felt like you wanted to be a part of it. All right, you're a jerk. All right, everybody. welcome. This is the fourth interview that we've done that we've done. We've only released two, correct? This is the third one we've done and we've only released one. No. Fourth? Fourth. You're right. You're right. It's my day to be wrong. It's my day to be wrong. Sorry. When's the second one coming out? as soon as we get a thumbs up from the person we recorded. Perfect. The third one was Michelle and today's the fourth one. We're so good at it. Anyway, finally oiled machine here. Yeah, as you can see. All right. So I'll do my actual introduction to who we're interviewing today. Today. Thank you guys for joining us. This is, Michael's Ovation, which is a nonprofit organization in the Pittsburgh area. Michael's Ovation was created to honor the memory of Michael Schaefer, who died by suicide at the age of 14. Joining us today are the board members of Michael's Ovation. we have Heather Schaefer and her husband, Mike, Tara Lynn. Is it? It's Tara, not Tara, correct? Okay. Got it. Okay. Angela Tyler and Laurie Black. How do you say your real last name? Laurie. Okay. So you may have heard us mention Laurie previously on the podcast because we grew up across the street from Laurie. I still feel like I was so little back then. You were little. Yeah, you were five years younger than us and that didn't, six years younger than Laurie, I think, that didn't prevent us from dragging you places. Like you were just with us. You were just smaller. Yeah, I don't really remember a ton of it. I remember quite a bit of it. I mostly remember you making me cry. See, Lori remembers this. Are you talking to Lori right now? no, I'm talking to you in this corner, Christine talking to you. All right. This is not about us. All right. Whatever. Get on with it. And, Heather, Kyle, Heather, Kyle, and I played soccer together for years. A lot of years. And apparently we were really mean, which I didn't remember. I remember that. feedback from opponents was that we were brutal. We were like a tiny gang of our own. Like not an Oak Hill gang or a Blaine Hill gang, but a soccer gang. I feel like we should mention that Heather and Laurie were like founding members of, in Angela. We're the founding members of the, Blaine Hill gang, I think. Yeah. Yeah. These guys with gangs. Legit, probably, three of the only members of the gang. They were the only members. There were just a few of us. There wasn't a whole big teenage population on Blaine Hill, at the time of us growing up. But I was trying to think of, what boys would have been walking around with us during those times. I can't even remember. Billy Leogas. No, he's in our gang. Do you say last names on the podc don't know if that's a th want, I can't explain the thing. Yeah, I was actuall into that. So for anybody talk about Blaine Hill, B grew up. and for thos religiously, we were talk and I am So curious as to the mechanics of the tic tac ing. How do the hard kernels come off? Is that what they are? Kernels come off? Like, how do you get them off? I feel like that's not easy. Go ahead, Angela. You can share this one. Do you remember taking the kernels off of the cob? So anyway, we would go up into the field like you were right, we would go up into that farmer's field that's at the top of Blaine Hill and I don't literally remember like how we got the corn back to a house. We must have taken bags or I don't know, did we stick it in our pockets? I don't know what we did, but we would take the whole thing, the cob and everything back to one friend's house and sit in her basement. And she would have a big five gallon buckets down there and we would just it was easy as far as I can remember. Now I totally cannot remember like taking the corn off of the cob, so it must have been fairly easy to do that because that's not a strong memory in my head. But we would just put it all in these five gallon buckets. And then we would take like clean tube socks and stuff the tube socks with corn, right Ange? I forgot about the tube socks. Does that sound familiar? That's what we did, right? Oh yeah. That's how we got corn around, I believe. And the buckets were already ready. I had nothing to do with that, that I remember, but. No, they were ready. I didn't have to be involved in that. Yeah, I don't know who did that unless somebody gave them to us, but they knew what we were going to do. then we would fill them up in the box and then we would just walk on throughout the neighborhood, get a can full of corn, throw it at someone's house. It was always way funner if they would like Turn on the lights or come out and then you would run. But honestly, most of the time we would just throw it and walk down the road and put it at the next house down the road. Like a parade. Yes. Like aluminum or something, because then, you would hear it. And we were only, if I remember, we were only excited if the light turned on, because if there was no light turn on, then it was just, but as soon as the light would turn on, we're like, yes, go. Yeah, so we probably did that like every weekend night of October. Yeah. we, it would have been funny at the time to have a Apple watch to see how far we walked. that's all we do. We would just walk all over Blaine Hill, we would, sometimes we'd go into Oak Hill, but mostly it was just Blaine Hill. With your tube socks. So like by the end of it, you just look like Homie the Clown walking around with a tube sock with a little bit of corn left, like you could go beat kids and shit with it. Or go to pick up more corn. That's fantastic. And who thinks who's, who says, Oh, let's fill the tube socks up with the corn. No clue. I just. We've always done it this way. This is tradition. And I don't even know where it started, who started the idea of doing this. And there had to have been, Angela, there had to have been boys walking around with us, because I don't think it would have just been us. Me, you, Leanne. No, it doesn't seem like there, there had to be others. The only boy I can think of would have lived, by the fire hall, Brad. I could think of him doing it, but I don't know what other boys would have done it. I know we can't say names, so I'll just go with a nickname, Guy. Who? Guy? The guy that lived across from Denise, he never did stuff like that. No, he didn't do that. All right. So that's a little bit about how we all know each other. And, I didn't realize like Heather, I did remember you once I saw you not like a ton, but your face was definitely familiar to me. So that's what that's from. it's from the soccer, the game of soccer. Yeah, for sure. all So why don't we get into it? I just, the next part I have a little, my outline that I'm following. I just want to open it up for you guys to talk a bit about Michael. I know, we didn't really write anything down when we met, just had an open discussion about him. And I really loved listening to you guys tell stories about him and the things that I really remember, or the two things I wrote down are his kindness and his humor. Because it just, the humorous things that you were telling me, I am sad that I didn't get to meet this kid because, it, like the whole Sis, I did this, I, you weren't here, but I made this little thing this morning to put in because of the toothbrush that he put in his ear when he was trying to act like he had the, I, air pod, whatever. anyway, I'll just say, Heather, I'll let you go ahead and start, and, Heather and Mike, if you wanna lead us in some stories about Michael. Yeah. I'll tell you first, like Mike and I met online. 19 years ago, 20 years ago, and so the internet had just been invented not too long before that. Yes, we were both widowed at the time and young widows at the time. And, that's how we met and started talking and eventually Mike moved up here and, I had Tyler to my first marriage and my husband died when Tyler was two. And, Mike left Tennessee, moved up here, had Michael, got married, had Michael, and, so then we were, all four of us here together, and, Michael, I'm sorry, I'm saying, all the time here, We'll cut those out. Okay, thank you. Michael was, hilarious, he was 14, he died in February of 2020. He was just ornery as the day is long. He was funny. when I say kind, Michael was kind sometimes to some of us and, some of us he would be, a little shit too. Until we got along. Yeah. Until when you were around. With me, I could do no wrong with Michael. if I would have said the sky was purple, Michael would have argued with him about it, and we both would have ganged up and said, the sky is purple, what are you looking at? and we were, Then we'd get along, and it'd be totally different. He said, Dad, I have to do that because Mom doesn't forgive me. he was like my backup, Yeah, he was my backup. So he was just funny as can be like, there's so many funny Michael stories. I'll tell you guys, I'll tell them the story of the AirPods. Like he went to school one day and, I don't know. I think it was math class in middle school. And I don't know what the purpose of this was other than to make people laugh. But he, put in, took Mike's. Toothbrush holder, the top of the toothbrush holder and put it in his ear to act like it was an air pod. I'm sure so that he would get a reaction from the teacher and the other kids, telling him to take the air pod out. it wasn't an air pod. It was the top of a toothbrush. just things like that constantly. up to the day, even past where, when he died, he was, he took a Bluetooth to school, put it in his backpack, was making these crazy sounds. Walking around with a Bluetooth speaker in his backpack, playing music, in his backpack, and acting, of course, like he had no idea. It wasn't music, it was strange sounds, like, where people was looking like, where's that sound coming from? Yeah. I love that. And I just, I think the thing I love about that the most is just that you say, just to get a reaction out of somebody, because I feel like that's shit I did growing up and middle school when this one English teacher had a substitute, he took Vaseline and wiped down all of her stuff with Vaseline. And he said dry erase markers, but he would have just did a little bit, but he did all the lockers, her pencils, her desk, everything. He said, we're going to be, a month from now, we'll be filling Vaseline somewhere. Finding Vaseline everywhere, yes. Oh my. Yeah, and I remember getting, I don't know if it was that call I got, or another call I got from the principal, and it would, he's of course his number comes up, and I'm like, hello. He's Heather. I'm like, yes, what now? And literally that was, I'm sure that middle school principal, he was so nice, but he just was probably like, Oh my gosh, this kid. Then I got a call from, what was it? The math teacher. And he said, Mike, I guess they were, he was writing problems on the board and nobody could get them. And, he said, does anybody know why nobody knows this answer? Mike raised his hand. He said, because you don't know how to teach. And he was like, what? He goes, if you knew how to teach, at least one of us would get it. So that tells me that you didn't get it. So he's, he called me, he goes, you just got to tell him, he was right, I thought about it. He was right, because if I did teach it right, at least somebody would have got it. He said, but. You gotta teach him how, what not to say. He had no, filter, I shouldn't say it this way, I should say it this way. There was no, nothing like this. know your audience is one of my things. No, whatever popped in Michael's head, that's what would come out of his mouth, yes. Yeah, and he was little, we would, we tried sports when he was younger, and Michael was very ADHD. And, oh my goodness, we'd spend the whole entire practice listening to a coach say his name over and over. Michael, Mike, let's, okay, we can't do this. eventually we gave up. we tried everything. We tried, soccer. We tried football. We tried swimming. He was at football practice one time and he was little. He was only maybe like first or second grade. He like listening to the coach, whatever. And then he's off, then he's like laying in the ground is like on the, on his back and he's fooling around and the coach yelled at him and super nice guys. Michael, you're not listening to me. He's I heard you the first time you explained it. And he repeated his directions right back to him. But he had to, of course, keep saying it over and over again. Michael's I heard you the first time, and repeated the play, knew what was going on, and he's and then he's checked out. Then he's done. Yeah. Yeah. Then there was a girl sitting in front of him at class, and he would take her phone. I told him. Oh, did you? the story. Go ahead. You can talk to him. Yeah, but tell it. Yeah. any story that you told us, feel free to share again, because this is all new for our listeners. share it. Or he took the phone, took a selfie of him, and sent it to her mother. Took her phone out of her backpack, took a picture of himself, took a picture of himself, sent it to the mom, from the girl, acting, and he's writing, hello to the mom, and she didn't know until she got home from school that Michael had taken her phone and sent a picture of himself to her. So goofy. He was in swimming when he was little. We did swimming one year. you think that's going to be better because, there's all that talk about swimming is better if you have ADHD because you can do your own thing. And, Oh no, that's not really because of that, because essentially they still want you to do so that your team can score a high, you're still dependent on the team. And, Michael did not really have any care of the team and always the last one out of the locker room because the last one out of the pool. So at the end of the practice, they're all doing these laps at the end of the practice, they're doing their own laps and, he is just like flopping around in the water and I'm like, what in the hell is he doing and it's taking forever and it's, so he gets, eventually gets out, I'm waiting there, legit, 45 minutes after every single practice to get Michael out of the locker room where he is now left behind like 17 things, water dripping everywhere. So we're walking out. I'm like, Mike, what were you doing at the end of practice? what stroke were you doing there? And he's the coach said we could do whatever stroke we wanted. okay, what stroke were you doing? I was doing the octopus. Michael, he meant Yeah. You could do the backstroke. Freestyle. We did not mean, make your own stroke up. That kid was gifted. He was gifted, yes. He was gifted. when we I could have sworn, like, when he was little, I could have sworn Michael was gonna be like, weird. I used to be like, he's gonna have such trouble with school and learning because My older son Tyler like loved books, like he would sit down, we would read books, he would memorize everything, like he just loved that. Where Michael could sit for 30 seconds and then boom, he's gone. And I thought for sure, I'm like, he's gonna have so much trouble like learning, it's just, it's not gonna be the same. Tyler was so easy to teach how to read and Michael, I'm like, it's not gonna be the same. I was at preschool one day picking him up and the teacher's he is so bright. And I'm like, who are you talking about? We could get through the letter E in the alphabet. we could not do anything. there was no me teaching him anything at home. And, yeah, by the time he got into kindergarten and he had the most patient kindergarten teacher. And like just so sweet and kind and she figured out yeah, he really, his kindergarten teacher and his first grade teacher and his librarian at his elementary school, they were just like so beyond kind and patient with him. Even like now we have like wonderful memories of them. They figured out yeah, he's really bright. Like we're going to, this kid's going to, he can do this, he can do things. And she said, when you. You hear about, say, CEO, president or something, how they were when they grew up. She said that's what Mikey reminded her of. Yeah, really bright. Yeah, really bright. Love to read. once we figured out, okay, sports were not Michael's thing. Never. He didn't like to watch them. He didn't like to be around them. He did not like to play them. But once, yeah, once we figured out, What his thing was and then we got into like he got into reading and he would do reading competitions and things like That was much more like suited for him. Michael was just, really, he had, he had his quirks and he was definitely a quirky kid. And, but he loved to learn, he loved to read. Hug. Yeah. He was real loving, like he would still sit on top of my lap, even at 14 years old and sit on top of me like, the last Thanksgiving we had, I have pictures of him sitting on top of me legit, like we're watching the dog show, we watched the, parade, and then we watched the dog show and legit sitting like right on top of me, so yeah, he was real loving like that kind of, yeah. and he never wanted you to be mad at him either, like he'd do anything like he didn't like to fight. He'd like to fight, but not He liked to instigate things. Instigate, I like that too. Tar, I can tell you like once Tar and him would start like jabbing each other, there was like no quitting. Yeah. Yeah. Worst taser. He just shoves his fingers in your side as hard as possible. And no matter what you do, it's like you would not stop. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a dog on a bone. Yeah. Yeah. but Michael, like we, we never really, aside from like Warren Ray getting in school trouble kind of things, we never really had any. No, never major issues with him. he was only 14, it wasn't long before he died that he was having a lot of trouble, sleeping at night and like he would be up until two or three in the morning, and then had a really hard time getting up for school in the morning and things like that. and eventually we've said, do you want to go talk to somebody about we would give him melatonin, going through all these like things and it wasn't helping him. You want to go talk to somebody about it? He was like, yeah, that would be a good idea. So we started going to see a counselor to talk a little bit about what was going on, was it anxiety? Was it, what was happening with him? And, they gave him like a low dose of an antidepressant. And, that was only a month before he died. Not long, like we didn't even really get a chance to figure out like anything really, like he did not tell us that anything was really going on with him. what was he upset about? What was he thinking about? Was there anything upsetting him? Because you wouldn't really know. He was just being his normal, like goofy, silly, cracking joke self. And they gave him the antidepressants for sleep, right? Not depression, right? It was mostly like to help him sleep at night. Maybe like some anxiety issues and like to calm his brain down before he would go to sleep kind of thing and not get worried and stressed. And then, that how that goes, you're up at night and then you're sitting there looking at the clock and you're worried because you haven't slept and, made it worse and worse. so we really did not like, he didn't talk to any of his friends about anything. this really came out of the blue. Like, when he was little, he would say stupid things like, Oh, I'm going to kill myself. I hate to use that word, now that we know not to talk like that. I've always felt like that was a weakness. You know how everybody has a weakness, whether it's alcohol, whatever the weakness is. I've always felt because I've told you that. Yeah, I didn't have any feelings like that. But, as a, I just felt something like that was a weakness that we'd have to watch out for. I never thought to this extent. I just thought, Yeah, and he would say those like offhand remarks, but he was like, 12, And it wasn't anything like, but sometimes you hear these off handed remarks is what people really think. Breaking this ripping up mad, like a place, Matt, and he's where did where did Where did Michael get the ADD from? Because I think it's genetic, but I'm just, just We were two peas in a pod. He was, he was the only person I think I felt really connected to that thought like I did. like we were, Since he's gone, it's hard to find, I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. If you want, I can start, moving your stuff around and doing things to annoy you. Like that. I can handle that one. Michael loved, So adorable. Michael loved, Double Stuff Oreos. He loved, Dinosaur Chicken Nuggets. Those were like, every day he had to eat dinosaur chicken nuggets. And when Michael loved something, he would be on it. he would eat it until he could not eat it anymore. Cosmic Brownies. Cosmic Brownies. Honey Buns. But then when he was done with it, it was like, boom, I'm done. I'm never having that ever again. You know what I mean? It's I'm like, how can you just never eat a Cosmic Brownie again? Okay, I read one time that it, I shouldn't eat those things, so now I'm never gonna eat it again. Okay. a ADD thing, hardcore. yeah. Water. Okay, we had to have, Fiji water. Because He did a water study or read a water study, and it talked about all the different alkalines in water and the best tasting water and the worst tasting water. So we can only have Fiji water for him because that was supposedly the best tasting water. So that's what I drink. That's awesome. Water to me. I don't taste the difference in water. I feel like I'm going to drink nothing but Fiji water now, right? So it sounds right. I just want to touch on something that you guys said. So when you're, when your kids like 12, 13, 14, they, it's so hard to tell what's concerning and what's just teenage bullshit, right? what are you're a demon to me? 80 percent of the time. and I had a girl, so obviously really different. Yeah. you're a demon to me 80 percent of the time and I'm not sure what's like normal teenage stuff and what is like something that I really need to be concerned about because, similar to you guys. we always had some underlying sort of mental health issues with Olivia, but, before she attempted suicide, we had. the idea that she would even do something like that was so far beyond the realm of anything that I would have expected because she's 14. yeah, sure. She's gonna pop off about killing herself and pop off about how, what bad parents we are, how hard life is so hard. And, I think that's something important for people to be aware of that. There's just no good way to, you're their parent, you're with them all the time and there's just no good way to be like, I don't know how to deal with figuring out what's going to be the most concerning until you're able to look back on it and be like, oh yeah, now I can see now like looking back on it. I'm like, oh, there's 14 things that weren't just normal teenage stuff. But if she wouldn't have attempted suicide, I never would have thought about them again. Like it's just hard. Yeah. And he was, yeah. Not our like moody child, right? Like he was not, I'm sure Ty won't mind me saying Tyler was much more moody than Michael. Michael was just funny and goofy and silly and hard to take seriously, But he never like. other than saying those things, but again, it would be like, okay, here I am playing this game with a group of kids at school and he says something like that, which was alarming to a teacher or something. They were like, oh, my goodness, and they would call us. We're like, what? He's not, we don't see anything like that. he's not, it wasn't until really he was having trouble sleeping that it got us worried. And even then we were not thinking this is what's going to happen. We just thought it was like what you were just saying, describing, it was just being a teenager. Yeah. Yeah. You're growing up. You're liking girls now. you're trying to fit in a group. And we thought low anxiety. Yeah. I can tell you about, are you okay with me talking about the day Michael died? Yep. Okay. Are you guys, it's totally up to you guys, whatever you want to share with us. We, and again, if we talk about it and you decide after, you guys will listen to this before we release it. So if you listen to it and you decide you don't want to share that information with our listeners, we can go back and take it out. So you guys share with us what you want to, and we'll fine tune it all before we release it. Mike was going to Texas for work and I never, rarely went on work trips with him. at the time, he was going to a lot of different, he was going to a lot of different places and I never really went with work trips. it was always him working and traveling and I was home with kids. And Tyler was in college and, Michael was 14. And he was going to Texas and I have never been to Texas and I'm like, I want to go to Texas, that would be cool to see, like he was going to San Antonio. I'm like, I want to go to the Riverwalk. I want to do the Alamo, all those things. so we decided that he was going down for the week and I was going to come down for the weekend and just have a long weekend with him. And Michael was with my mom and dad for the weekend. And, we were getting ready to come home. We were, that, okay. So COVID was just. Starting like we were watching it on television while we were down there, like the hotel, they were talking about it was this was February like 24th 25th is when Michael died and so it was literally like, you're just hearing about it. we saw one couple at the airport masks on and everybody was like, oh, stay away from those people. nothing like it wasn't really here yet. And So we were coming home and texting Michael, like it was Monday night and we were coming home that night and, texting him. can't wait to see you. He's texting. I can't wait to see you guys. What time are you going to be home? everything's normal. My parents had him that whole weekend. And then that was Monday night. I told my mom, don't worry about coming over because or taking him with you because we're going to be home. We're on our way home. He's fine. And we, got to the airport in Pittsburgh, and, our ring camera, somebody was at our ring camera, and Mike was getting a message that the police were at our ring, he could see the ring camera, the police were at our ring camera, and, he said, hey, there's the police at the ring, on the camera, so we stopped, we were going down the escalator to go get our bags, and we stopped, and, I called, I'm calling over and over again, he's not answering, Mike's talking to the people through the ring camera, like they got a welfare calls. One of his friends had called or one of his friend's parents had called and, they wanted us, they wanted to come check on him. And, he had died. while we were coming home, we had to drive that whole way. from Pittsburgh airport. Nobody really got back on the camera with us after that. Like we let them in the house, gave him the code to get into the house and we could see them coming and going. but nobody would stop and talk to us, so we knew right then when there was nobody ambulances pulled up and stuff. I think we knew nobody was like running. Nobody was stopping. Even though we're talking into the camera, you can hear us on the microphone. Nobody's stopping to answer us. So we knew it was gone. I called my parents. They came over pretty quick. yeah, and he had, he had died in that meantime. And no, we don't know really what happened. it was just we don't know if like I've heard it since explained like, like you can have a, you have a heart attack that you can have a brain attack and something happened at that moment and he just decided that's what he was going to do. And, he was gone and, I talked to him that day and I felt it was weird. It was blank. It was just more blank. Then, so I asked him, I said, what's going on? Because he said, can Grammy go home because you guys are going to be in, what, about midnight? There's no sense of her being at the house and you guys, are sleeping on the couch or whatever. And I said, what are you doing? Throwing a party without your dad? just joking around and he never joked back. And, I thought that was really bizarre. Now that you think about it. Yeah, now that I think about it. no, at the time I thought it was wrong. I said, what's wrong? I said, I'm trying to talk to him. He said, I'm just a teenager, Dad. You know how we are. it's one of them that, just things about being a teenager. Then I just chalked it up. It's okay. Yeah, again, that's just it's something you don't think you would never like you were saying you wouldn't really know. There's no red. There was no really. Even when we look back now, we had history for three years on his phone. I went through Every single thing, every social media, I mean in detail. There was nothing. Nothing. There's nothing. Because people ask me all the time, they'll be going through the same thing, and I'm like, I don't really know what to say, or what to look for, or signs. The only thing I can think of is these little one off comments. you were saying the teachers were saying something, maybe. That's the only thing, but I don't know how you How would we have stopped something we didn't even know was happening, right? And that's the thing is that you're not looking, nobody's looking for that. Like we always say, it's so much easier when you have a broken bone, you know what the hell you're looking for, you know what's happened, that's easy to treat. But as parents, this isn't something that we want to think about or that we ever think that we need to really think about. So it's really. It's difficult and we had like discussions, because he had started seeing a therapist, we're talking about those kind of things. We're really open about, you just have to, if you start taking this medicine and you don't feel normal and you don't feel like yourself, you have to let us know because we can try something different, so we don't really know what, that's something I would, if anybody gets out some of this pet podcast, if they do start, anti depressants, really watch him because, that's one of the side effects. It says right there. But we really, he didn't tell us, he's feeling this way. So how would we know? And he didn't tell his therapist he was feeling this way, yeah, we talk a little bit in the. Some other episodes that how, just how hard it is. Like medication is just hard. You can't, because it's not a broken bone. Like you can't put it, you can't say, Oh, we've splinted it. It'll grow back. like it's supposed to now, like even something as simple as an antidepressant that's been around forever and ever. Like we had to go through several cycles. After an extended period of time to where Olivia is like, this doesn't work and I hate it. And, yeah, what do we do now? somebody else in our family developed a terrible allergic reaction to their, to their medication two and a half years into it. Like medication is great and medication will help you. But medication also needs to be like. have to understand what you're doing and you have to understand that you gotta check in repeatedly. It's not a splint on a broken bone. You're messing around with chemistry in your brain and your brain's really a mystery. Yeah. And we like, it was so new. Like it had not even, and I don't think that, it was so new, like we hadn't filled that yet. You know what I mean? Even like months into it, they like two weeks. Yeah, Two weeks. Yeah. Like it wasn't any, So I, I think did a stupid thing. He made a mistake and then, you can't take this mistake back. it was just like for whatever reason, whatever reason he had that day. and it was done, and there's no changing it. I read, I don't know if you, you did this to where you read, I read like a probably over a thousand suicide letters, that people wrote on line and stuff like that. Just to try to figure it out. what, how can I help somebody? There's just, some of them just said, I got a toothache. That's all it was. simple as a toothache. it was, So it's so personal, right? It's so different for everybody. And, even now, four years later, we still don't have four and a half years later. We still don't, we're no different than we were that first day of knowing why this happened and why Michael did this. And other than yes, Michael had ADHD. He was very impulsive, yeah. Yeah. I'll, yeah. I don't know if I shared this with you guys while we were eating dinner, but, Olivia was kind enough to, to leave us, some notes and, I will tell you that the note was all about how everything wrong in her life was a direct result of what shitty parenting, we had put into, and she'll tell you that, That wasn't at all what was happening. So even when they leave you a note, the note isn't note isn't the thing. She's I was just in so much pain inside and I didn't know how to like, adequately express it. So I just called you a shitty mom and then I thought that you would feel bad for the rest of your life because you couldn't help me. Yeah. And you don't even know how, you don't even know what was going on to help you or, help or to get you to a person that could help you, I know this was happening, probably like I would say okay, did we see him like being really silly right beforehand, but he was always had that attitude. Like he always had that. I'm just goofy. I'm saying jokes. He's been doing that since he was very young. So it's not like even that was like, that's out of the norm. For him carrying the speaker around in his backpack, right? It's been normal, right? you're, it's not like it's not like you spend every single minute of every single day focused on your child's behavior. When they're 14, you're like, dude, you're just about cooked. I got other stuff. I got to take care of. if something's big, I'm expecting you to be able to talk to me and. Yeah, you're like, you're going on work trips. You're like, you're fine with your grandparents and you should be because you're I'm working, you're working, you're going to school, and maybe if you didn't do anything else the entire day, like cook or clean or take care of another child or maintain a relationship with Mike, you would have been like, Oh, yeah, that's strange. But who? Nobody is equipped to do that. None of us. it's like when they're growing, you don't notice it. they don't fit in their pants anymore, their shoes are too small, we, yeah. And that's the thing, like it's, I think that's what we're doing here and that's what we want to do. we can't define it. We don't know exactly what to tell everybody to do. we don't know, but what we do know is that we can get the word out there and that we can get an audience and that we can get people to understand that we as parents need to talk to our kids and not again, not saying that will fix it, but we just need to get the awareness out there and, we need to not ignore this shit and we need to talk about it and we need to get the kids aware of it. I think a lot. throughout our lives, we've ignored it so much and that it's just like they're, they don't want to talk to us about it. again, not saying that this is what causes it, but hopefully getting this out there and talking more and getting to parents who do that, who push it down, who ignore it, getting to those parents will help and getting to the kids who, who aren't as aware of it will help. and the interview that's coming out, our next interview that's going to be coming out hopefully, in the next week is with, the AFSP, the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention. and that's what she does. she gets out to schools and gets those audiences. And I feel like that's what our job is when I say our job. Me and Sissy, like we need to get people to listen that there are people who will come out and do this. unfortunately, in our community, not a couple weekends ago, we had, two student athletes, die from suicide. not in our school, but in neighboring schools. and one was 14, one, I believe was 17. He was a senior. one had played The girl was a goalie, played soccer at, at a local school and one of the things, like I reached out to Owen's soccer coach and said, I wanted to reach out to the school to get AFSP into school because as far as I'm aware, there's never, they don't do, they haven't done that at our school. In the meantime, do you think we can have her come talk to our boys and their parents? I feel like that's important, too, is that we get parents involved. It's not just, we can't just put it on the kids. We need the parents to be aware that, this is happening, and you need to talk to your kids as well. Michael, after Michael died, I think, all of the kids at his high school, really did a great job of realizing that it's okay to not be okay. they write a message out there that it's okay to not be okay. and they talked about it and they didn't, of course, it was right when Covid happened. So then they were off. Michael died in February. Those kids came back to school for a couple of weeks and then they were done. but all throughout the time that until, even now, I was going to say up until the time that the kids he was in school with would have graduated. they just all, I think, were really open with talking about it, which, is wonderful. Yeah. they'll, try to do things now to, make sure that Michael's memory stays out there. But honestly, Michael will forever be with those kids. Yeah. never forget where they were when they heard or what that felt like afterwards. And his school, was wonderful. Like his principal, counselors, everybody just wonderful in not being afraid to talk about it, which I think before, that was such a thing like, oh, we can't mention it because if we mention it, that might make another child want to, I think they've got They realize that wasn't the way to do it, not just ignore it and pretend like he wasn't around. Like they were just did so many things, to try to help the kids there and, to try to help us. And then when Michael graduated or would have graduated, like they remember him at his graduation, like they honored him, like they had a seat for him and they mentioned him by name. And that's not something that happens everywhere when a student dies by suicide, that they often want to ignore it and Bill Vernon didn't do that. Like they don't, we'll never know like how much that meant to us, like the graduating year and the kids that mentioned their speech, they'll never know what that was like, just knowing that he wasn't. The library, just what they do to the library. Yeah. We can talk about like that. Yeah. And that's great. And that's bell Vernon, right? That's what's okay. And I thought you said that they put a bench out in the, front of the school with the one 800 number, 800 number on it, the suicide hotline number. And, Yeah, you don't see a lot of schools are doing. what do I know? But it seems there's more of a, an ignoring, yeah, it's just, that's not, I'm not saying that's a school's fault because they just don't know. No, yeah. Just like we didn't as adults, we wouldn't have known right until it happens in your right in your family. You don't know that it's okay to talk about it and they didn't know either and they don't want to risk. Another student dying. So they thought for a long time that it would just be better to not talk about it and, I don't know who they all reached out to, but they surely figured out, Michael school figured out, it wasn't the best thing to just ignore it and pretend yeah, I'd love that. I think losing children, especially children is as young as Michael is, Tragic. And I don't know how I don't know how you guys have stayed as positive and is open as you have. But I think that's the important thing that comes out of it. The work you do after the work that Heather, you were able to get together with Tara and Laurie and Angela and let them help in and let them heal by putting together some of the stuff that Michael's ovation does and then just being as open and supportive of the efforts of the school and being able to talk about it and not shy away from it. I think that's the that's the positive that comes out of it, giving me the opportunity to come in and say, Hey, yeah, this is terrible and this is tragic and we don't want this to happen to anybody else. And the way that I think we get through that and past it is to be able to have those open and honest conversations like it to not have to. Not have to whisper the word suicide, not have to whisper, oh, mentally ill, to not have to continue to think of these non broken bone injuries as non injuries. so somebody at the funeral said that to me, something about being mentally ill. And I, I was floored. I like, I never thought that, I never, like that. It just wasn't something I thought about like I never just it floored me like it left me speechless for a minute, it's like You'll hear a lot of bad stuff that wasn't bad, but you'll hear bad stuff where people We were riding a bike one day and this guy He just pretty much said I had a shirt on. Yeah, so it's not suicide prevention like a he was like a walk What is the box? What do they say like I'm glad they But they do die. I wish they'd all just kill herself, Yeah. A guy on a bike, said, Stop. We were, like, getting on our bikes or getting off our bikes, and he was getting on or off or something like that and said, They should just let them all die. Yeah. that's what they want to do. Yeah, that's what it was. What? A dick. Oh, yeah. I hope he was. I hope that guy gets giant blistering boils on his buttocks. But let's face it, that's how a lot of people think of suicide, right? And okay, then if that's what you want, then that's what we should let you do. And, I don't see it as like a personal mission to go out and change people's minds like that, but maybe at least if I wear a shirt like that, then he stopped and talked to me and I said, you know what, that was my son and I surely wish that I could have stopped him, and maybe he would be taking this bike ride with us right now. And, and I'm sure that guy, hopefully that guy walked away thinking. Oh, maybe, I'm a dick. Yeah, maybe that wasn't the right thing to say. And maybe I, maybe I wasn't, I'm not thinking about it the right way. And he was older, and yeah, whatever, but Michael died in February 2020, and then COVID hit, so we really had a weird, healing process because everything's shut down. I've said this before, like when someone dies that you love, you think everything should stop, like the world should shut down. and it did, like a month later, like nobody was doing anything, and we were all here and, but, and the downside, hadn't really figured out like zoom calls yet for therapy and things like that. You were, we were just piecing it all together as it went. So at the beginning, like that first year, was, of course was horrible. More shock. Shock, yeah. And, holed up in the house. Thinking he's going to come back, still thinking he's going to come through the door. Thinking that it wasn't him. at least, I don't know about you, but me, I was thinking, maybe it wasn't him. Maybe he changed, the body. you sit there and you try to. Even though, you know, it's not true. You go through all these things. Eventually, once, I feel like once everybody started figuring out that we were going to be in lockdown for a while, then we had, a lot of progress in, mental health and, being able to talk to people online and things like that. that's how I did a lot of, I would go up in my room, up in the office upstairs and, Watch videos and meet with groups and talk with people about what was going on, he didn't, he was like the opposite, that didn't help him. It helped me, we were not healing the same, so it took us that first year. Like we might even like we separated for a while, like we just not feel the same way. and it was just so painful and so raw and I didn't think I'd ever I had a plan on just pretty much doing the same thing. To be honest with you, I was like, your whole life is, taken away. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm gonna interrupt real quick. Mike, what brought you out of that? Do you think? to be, I think moving somewhere new, it was totally, you had to get this, and this. And I think it was a change in pace, rewiring, knowing I'd bring the sorrow to other people also, to know that, just like I love why. There's going to be other people that I'm going to hurt, too. Yeah. And just, I think that was the main thing, probably. Not totally out of it. it's still yeah. it's still, it's in your mind. but you got, you're strong enough to fight it off. that first story was just so horrific. Oh, yeah. It gets better. it's not like you don't still have days, four and a half years later of like devastation. But at that first year, every day is like a physical pain. you literally have a physical pain in your body. like I can remember my whole stomach. I felt like somebody had just carved me out and I was hollow, like it was just And I'm not saying like after a year hits, Oh, wow, now there it is. And you can laugh and cause you, you get nervous. You don't even want to laugh in front of people. You don't want to, you don't know how to act in front of people. Cause somebody sees your lap laughing. Oh, then we want to put that too on her face. say we're sad. We're broken. I guess now we can laugh and, tell funny stories about him and stuff like that where it's nice. And it, I will say like having people talk about him is wonderful. Like people mentioning his name and saying Michael, like not like inorganically saying oh, tell me about Michael, but if something comes up and Michael's name comes up, you don't have to feel like, You're going to remind me that he died if you bring up his name or something. I'm not going to be like, Oh, here I was, Oh, I've totally forgotten. Now you reminded me of my son is gone. Yeah. Like I remember every minute of every day, but if he did something funny or we want to talk about it, like I'm, it's nice to have people mention his name and say like something about him and, Like when the girl with the girl's mom told me about the cell phone, like I had never heard that story before, so it's when she's telling me, I'm like, no, he never told me this. This was in middle school. Maybe I don't know if it's middle school or high school. he had never told me he did something like that. the same thing with the ear, the, Toothbrush thing. Mike, I always thought it was Tyler stealing his toothbrush heads, and here it's Michael stealing the toothbrush heads. just, didn't tell us, just funny things like that. If, people wouldn't share those things or those stories. But my sister called me every single day. to the point where, Yeah. Yeah, she helped you a lot. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard for me to even say it, She helped me a lot. for Hours, yeah. Yeah. Sisters are good sisters. Definitely. Mike moved away for a little while for about a year. He moved away and there wasn't a day. She did not like she'd call to I answer. Yeah. It's three o'clock in the morning. Would she be calling? He'd probably be okay right now. I know he would be okay right now with like us moving. Like we're in the same house. Oh yeah. Where Michael died. It still bothers me really bad being here. but it's hard for me to leave here because, and I say this, I've said this before, like Michael lived here. he was born, came home to this house two days after he was born. He took his first steps here. Like I have so many memories of him here. That it's hard for me to be okay with leaving this house, even though, yes, he did die here. he was more than just that minute of what he did that day. he was, we had over 14 years with him here, but it's hard. You guys, go ahead. You guys, it's amazing. it's amazing to hear the story and not just of Michael, but also, of you guys. And your journey through this and coming back together and obviously you don't feel the same way about things and you don't process things the same way, but somehow you're still managing that together. And, I think that's highly commendable and I'm going to guess it's not very easy and it's probably still not easy. So, no, there are moments, there are moments where it's still really hard. now we grieve more alike than, but even like the Michael's ovation things like that's harder for him. It's not as hard. It's not hard for me. Like I love Michael's ovation stuff where it's harder for him. So I do that, he doesn't. Yeah. Now we have, Tyler is our older son. He's 20. He's going to be 24 here. yeah. In a couple of weeks. And, like he had a really, he had much harder time, I wouldn't say a harder time dealing with it. We all have a horrible time dealing with it. I shouldn't say that. he dealt with it in a way to try to numb himself. and he it was really hard for him. like he turned to, he turned to things that weren't healthy for him to deal with. Michael dying. And he went through that for about a year after Michael died. We had this hard time for this first year, it was hard for time for that first year. it's still hard for time now. but he is, he's doing great and, we're super proud of him. He's, he is a nurse right now. He works in the emergency room and he's a nurse. And, as we speak right now, he and his girlfriend are moving into a new house, renting a new house and moving in right now. lots of good things happening for him, but he, had to take care of himself too and took him about a year to figure out, that what he was doing wasn't helping, he was just pushing it down and it wasn't going away by pushing it down using substances, it wasn't making it better and then when it hits you even harder. he's in recovery and, Yeah. Super proud of him. Good. That's awesome. And yay for the new house. And they don't live around here, correct? Okanos. Yeah. They live in like East Stroudsburg area. Yeah. Okay. That's what I thought. I remember. Which is he went to, he went out there, and, had some treatment out there and, decided to stay out there, which was really a good thing for him. I think not to come home. one in our house, honestly, because it's hard for him to be here and the kid now here and also being like in the same, neighborhood with, really easy to find and it was like habits, now he's from those habits and has a new life and new habits out there. So I think that's been, it's been great for him. I would love for him to live here and live around this area, but. Again, it's the same thing. We're all like, it's okay. You guys need to deal with it because, yep, I'd much rather him live out there and be healthy mentally and physically than be here and not right. And I think that's really important. I think it's really important for all three of you to understand each other that you're all processing and that you will continue to process differently. so again, I commend you guys on that because I, I think that's a very difficult thing to do. so that's just amazing and great to hear. And, again, thank you guys so much for sharing all of this with us and continuing to share it with us. Um, I want to talk about Michael's ovation. Are you guys okay with that now? Is there more that you guys want to share? Okay. Okay. Yeah, there you go. See, I'm good at this shit. so Lori, I'm going to go to you cause I think it was you and Angela to start and Angela, I apologize cause I might slip here and call you and instead of Angela, cause I have an Angela friend and that's what we call her and that just comes out. So totally fine. I will like a lot of friends that call me and. Okay. So Lori, I'm going to throw it over to you. If you want to just, let us know how Michael's ovation started and give us a little bit of background and, whatever else you want to share with us about the organization. Okay. it was coming up on the year of Michael's passing and Angela and I were putting our heads together saying, what could we do? Like we wanted to do something. and, Michael had a, strong, enjoyment, I guess is the right word, for music. And he took music lessons at a school called Meister Minds. So Angela and I, after throwing around a few ideas, decided that we would reach out to the music school and see if we could sponsor a student in Michael's memory. And so we, went ahead and we went out and we met with, the owner who knew Michael loved him. And, throughout the course of talking to her, she had shared with us that she had also lost a daughter, different circumstances, but that a friend of hers had actually established a nonprofit in her daughter's memory. And that kind of got the ball rolling with Angela and I of, we didn't go into it with the, Tent of setting up a nonprofit, we just, we're going to sponsor a student, to enjoy some music like Michael did and by the time we walked out the door, we had already, given her a check to sponsor the first student and we're, starting to, plan, going off and establishing the nonprofit. So the first thing we did was we called Heather and said. we would like to do this if it's okay with you and, you can have as much or as little involvement, as you want. And as she just told you, she loves it. she was like, Oh, I'm totally on board. let's do this. So we went ahead and we, applied to be the nonprofit. Heather, if you can see, I think she and I have one, Heather designed the, a logo, took the drumsticks, from Michael's, um, drum lessons that he took at Meister Minds, because that's how we started, right? And then we blossomed, so we just started off, we were going to sponsor, one student a month. And, Angela and I were just going to do this on our own, we were going to fund it and then quickly other people were like, tell us how we can help. We want to get involved. so we have some regular donors that quickly covered that one student a month without Angela and I having to, contribute a penny. So then we started thinking through what other things can we do? and in talking to Heather, it's very important. To, to talk about the people. not obviously we're focused on Michael, but anybody who's lost anybody, it's very important to talk about them, to tell the stories, it doesn't have to be a sad thing. but anyway, so we started focusing on things that Michael enjoyed, let's talk about Michael and the things that he liked to do. Let's go help some other person enjoy those things. we quickly expanded on, the school library, that Mike mentioned earlier. at the elementary school, they had created, the, I don't know, maybe I'll let you tell the story. But they created an area in Michael's honor, right? And so reading was one of his other areas of enjoyment. So we started buying books for the schools. not only the elementary school that Michael went to, but the elementary school that Heather teaches at. And even most recently, we bought, books for the schools that Tara teaches at. and sharing that love of reading with other kids, in Michael's memory. so that, you Heather can say to her student, My son Michael loved to read. Or, Tara can say, My nephew Michael loved to read. the librarian at Belverton Elementary can say, our former student Michael, he loved to read. And then we, started, looking for other areas. one of the things Michael also liked to do, was, bike riding. he dragged Heather all summer long to, the wheel mill. and so we said, let's go down there and take a day and we'll sponsor the entry, for 30 kids so they can come in and enjoy the place like Michael did, so that was a fun day. Um, and I'd never been there before. And yeah, me neither. Yeah. Yeah. and Heather walked us through and, told us all about it and, told us some stories. when Michael was there. I loved picturing him and I could see him going up and down and all of the things. And then flying into the ball of the sponges that, she said he just loved it so much. And I loved being able to picture him there. and, Heather had shared videos, at the time, that it happened. So I was like, Oh, I remember him flipping into the ball field, like Angela said. And yeah, and how many hours that, she spent there. and then, probably about that time, we've built up quite a nice fund. and. Tara and her husband, Ryan, said, Hey, we want to help them. We want to get involved and we can, help you guys learn how to do a fundraiser golf outing, which is funny because none of us golf don't know anything about golf and it's, it would be really, we'd probably still be on the course if we were trying to play, but, we have pulled off, Three now successful golf outings, and we've raised a little more money each year and, we've, added, scholarships at, Belvarne Area High School. We started the year with Michael's graduating class and we gave away six 500 scholarships, and we've, continued that this year and we're going to continue that going forward. So part of our golf, Fundraiser is to fund those scholarships. We've also, branched out into animal adoption, sponsorships. Michael, was also a very, big animal lover. to be able to help other families, you know, bring a pet into their home so they can enjoy the same thing that Michael did. what am I missing guys? those are the big ones. Yeah. Yeah. We do like pet adoptions. We've paid, we've sponsored rescue transports to come up. I'm not sure whose phone keeps going off. Somebody's phone keeps up, keeps buzzing. Yeah. we've sponsored like rescue van sponsorships. how do I want to say that? so they'll go down, like into a kill shelter and, bring up, save some. Yeah, I just want to add into the, when Michael died, he had a really great friend, Viva and her mom helped organize like how, cause of course people want to help you when something like this happens and Viva and her mom, Mary helped organize, a way for people to donate money and we split that money up and. And I think Tara gave me the idea like we could split it between the library and his elementary school because that was a place that Michael loved, felt safe, his librarian like had a connection with him all throughout his elementary school years and just made such a difference in his life. And then, we split that and, gave some to his school library and elementary school library and the music school Maestro Minds and Mia. Mia was wonderful. He went through like several different like drum teachers. and piano teachers. And then, they would come and go. And then once he hooked up with Mia, who is the owner, they just had this great connection. And that's how that happened. But his school elementary school librarian, she also, worked together with another woman and they made in their elementary school, in their library, this area in the corner of the library called the reading machine, because that's what she called Michael. And, it's just fabulous. It's like a little place for kids to go in the library, like this little nook for kids to go in the library. But it's set up like a machine. there's gears in it, and there's comfy chairs in it. And it's just, I'll, I have it on our Facebook page. Somebody can go in and look at it. And also on our website. but it's just amazing, to think now that kids can go in that library and sit in that spot and read a book. Because that, Michael just loved going in there. And even now, he's still making a difference with those kids in elementary school when, a first grader can walk in there and see that and, go in there and read a book in there and just, know that Michael had a part in that. It's just amazing. I got to say, if you guys are just listening and you're not going to tune in to the YouTube, you got to see Heather's face when she's talking about this, because it absolutely lights up. And I think that is so special. And as someone who has had a lifelong love of books and reading and, found a little solace in the library when things are crazy. It's such an important thing to be able to find those kinds of spaces. And the fact that you guys are able to carry on, Michael's memory in that way, just. Touches my heart and you can see like it again if you guys aren't watching on YouTube I will describe it like the way everyone's faces kind of change when they talk about Michael it on Like I can see it even though my computer's fairly shitty right now like I can see the way That talking about leaving that positive legacy and being able to contribute back and have an impact on people who will come after Michael, who might need a sort of safe space in the library. Just right here. Thanks. All the feels. Thanks to his librarian. she's just, she was just wonderful and she made such a difference in his life. Like I said, he had several teachers in his life that made such a difference, but she really just always. Yeah, and we just looked out for him, and like he was like the last p one of the last groups to leave at the end of the day, and he would be sitting out in the lobby and she like figured out, he liked to read, come on in and get some books and was like, wait, I can get more books? This is amazing. And she just made such a difference in his life. And, it's really cool to be able to work with her now. Like Tara's a librarian. She knows so I think that's like. It's still something so special to me. They have that in common, and, knowing that your library, your elementary school librarian, which I think is something that, a lot of people overlook, right? That they're, when you think of, kids think of, oh, they're top teachers of their memories of their school career, their elementary school librarian might not have been somebody that comes to the top of their mind. And, she definitely was for both my kids. That's awesome. Yep. Same. Same. That person. That person in your life that will let you come into the library and will let you check out a book that's for a fourth grader when you're a first grader. I love that person. No need to brag. No need to brag. And we're allowed as a fourth grader to check out the first grader book too. It's fine. That's okay. Yeah, it does work the other way too, princess. You can check out the picture books. Damn you can. And Heather, the elementary school where Heather teaches, they created a garden area outside, but it is also stocked with books. Yeah. and the kids that don't want to like, play kickball at recess or play football at recess. I love that. They can go over there and grab a book and, sit on the rock or sit in the shade or sit at a bench and, grab a book and read. so we'll continue to, add new books to those three different libraries. And, we've even sponsored Angela's daughter's softball team. So when she's out there playing, she can see Michael's Ovation. on the big sign out in the outfield. I wonder if she's ever swung and tried to get it out there. I'm sure she probably has. when they would hang it, it would be on the fence, around the field. She loved that. She would say to me, I love it because, Michael's at my games. she loved that. She loved Michael very much. Very much. She holds the time that they had together. the last few times she holds that so close. She says it a lot. she says, I'm so glad we had that whole time in my room together. Just watching the office. Yeah, they both love the office here for the office. Yeah. And she loves swimming with him that day. when we all got together for lunch at a friend's house and it was just, her and Michael, all of us are up there gabbing and eating and she just loved it cause she's known him since she was born, they knew each other that long. So whenever we would all try to get together, which we would always try, although it's nice cause we get to see each other more often than we ever did, So that's awesome. I love that. Oh yeah. She loved having that sign at the game. He was there all the time. Yeah. That is something that Michael gave us is we definitely get together more now than we used to. I also love that Laura better now too. She's just not the, little sister that we picked on growing up though. Yeah. To Sarah have that in common. the little sisters that get picked on and picking on Yeah. She's the one that tagged along for everything and wanted to be a part of it and you guys are like, no, now she's here, now she's an equal. Yeah. Look at us kicking ass now, huh? I would say the one thing, all the things that Michael's Ovation does do so many things in Michael's memory, but also adding that piece now with the suicide prevention things. And whenever there's an organization or anything that we can give to, a lot of it has been. Things that Michael loved, but also anytime we hear about anything or any groups, any walks, anything like that, that we can help contribute to, and get, not really just get our name out there, but I feel like just to be as a resource for someone else or to give to those things I think is so important and not something that we originally started with. Yeah. Yeah, it's morphed into that too. Yeah, we weren't really, we were first looking for things that were important to Michael. But now, this is also something that's important to all of us. It's like working with Jackie and Ed, with March 4th has been, a wonderful thing. Michael and Tanner have such different stories. Yeah. same result. and here we, the four of us, and now all of us too, picking up afterwards and, trying to make a difference in other people's lives. that's been a blessing. Yeah, for sure. I know, selfishly looking at it from my perspective, being able to be a part of this and, getting to meet and reconnect with you guys and Jackie and Ed, of course, shitty fucking circumstances and we don't want to, we don't want to be having it happen that way. but it's great that, people from our past that we can get back in touch and, have it be for meaning, meaningful reasons and we can try to make a difference together. if you guys, I would love it. I got the March 4th logo from Jackie. If you guys could share, if you wouldn't mind, we're actually going to, We're going to put together some merch for the Mental Funny Bone. We're going to put together a t shirt. And so right now we have our logo on the front and then the March 4th logo over here. If you guys wouldn't mind, we'd love to share Michael's Ovation logo If you guys can send us the logo, I would like to share it on the sleeve. We, we, speaking of the shirts, along with Michael's ovation, with Mike's company, we actually provided Michael's entire class with the t shirt that I actually have on right now. and they took a picture outside the school, all the kids wearing their shirts with the bench that they dedicated. It's on our Facebook page. That was actually really sweet. Yeah. Yeah. So shirts out there everywhere. Yeah, I love it. I love it. And I think the other thing that I would like to have our listeners do is a buy a shirt from us so that we can so that we can help everybody else out. But also go and check out Michael's ovation. Check out the web page. Check out all the stuff that these guys are doing. And as you do that, think about the, The impact that you can have in your community in ways that you can make it okay to shout, suicide, without feeling ashamed and without worrying about, being able to talk about it. help us get rid of that kind of stigma, be able to talk about wounds that you can't necessarily see on the outside and, I think for us, Heather and Mike and the rest of you guys, is there one thing that you would like, people to take away from this podcast. Is there one important thing that you'd like everybody to know, whether it's about Michael or about yourselves or about the charity and the work that you guys are doing? You can have two, one for Heather and one for Mike, if you don't agree. Yeah, I guess just, talk to each other, reach out to each other. I wish Michael would have, Reached out to one of us or to someone he loved or one of his friends, and just told them, where he was and what space he was in, or even at that moment, just reached out. I don't know if it would have changed anything, but, and I think afterwards, through this four and a half years that we've been going through this without him here, just still reaching out to people that you love because he's You know, these people that you see in front of us that are helping us through this, they've just, our friends and our family just have, helped us get through this past four and a half years. And without all of them and their support, we would not have been able to get through things. reach out to each other. Be kind to each other. Take it, I know it's, sounds redundant, maybe, but taking it day by day will help too. where, At first I couldn't think of a year from now, because I, when he first died, I couldn't imagine myself a year from now, five years. I didn't want to, where I made it like for Father's Day, if I can make it to Father's Day, if I can make it through another holiday, just if I can make it through that, I think that's really beneficial. I don't know how it is with you, because we're opposite how we deal with that. And, then, a lot of times I think of him as being off in college, like Tyler's being in Eastern, D. A., where I'll think of Mikey as being somewhere else, to cope sometimes. Especially in the beginning. Yeah. And your life isn't over, too. Even though when you think it's over, it's not over. There's still a, you've got a story that's going to continue, too. Yeah, for sure. I like that. Alright, Tara, do you have anything you want to share? No, I feel like I completely agree with the two of them right there. But, things like we have to just go on and live for, I don't even know, I don't even know how to put it into words. But just being there for each other and, knowing that we're, being positive. And trying to make the best that we can out of a really bad situation, knowing that it's okay to not be okay. Angela, what do you got for us? I always thought of Michael, like I have people in my family. We all know somebody like this. And I have somebody in my family that I feel the same way about. You can't really put your finger on it. But there's something so special about this person and you can't, you really can't put your finger on it. I've met at least a handful of people like that in my life. And Michael was one of them. I knew it from the very beginning. I always felt it. And, he's just a, he was a great kid. Just a great kid. He just, the aura around him, everything about him was just something special. But she just couldn't place it, but she didn't care that she couldn't place it. you're like, he's just one of the good ones. He's, he was one of the good ones. Yeah. And it's taught me to just keep talking about them. I just want to help Heather and Mike so bad. And I've learned a lot to just keep, just ask, keep talking about him all the time. All right, Lori Black, what you got for us? just to, amplify what Angela said is, Heather said something to me once about seeing somebody, I think it was a grocery store or something. And the person literally walked the other way to avoid talking to her and don't do that, go, go talk to them, see how they're doing. You don't have to go up and say, immediately start talking about Michael. You can just talk to her about, life. And like she said, if a story about Michael comes up as a course of normal conversation, don't avoid saying his name, don't avoid sharing the story. but she's still the same Heather. She was before, um, it's okay to talk to her. And Christine, probably, I'm sure you had the same thing, right? Yeah. People were probably afraid to come talk to you. or mention anything, related to Olivia, that's the thing for me is don't be afraid to talk about it or talk to that person. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the drive behind, I think everything that you guys have said. wrapping us up is that, it's important to carry on the memory of the people. And it's important to talk about what we're going to do to carry forward and how we're going to make a very tragic thing, a positive thing. And. For me being able to articulate what happened and how it happened and why it happened and, how we moved forward from that was so important and a common theme that Sarah and I see when we're. When we're talking to Jackie and Ed, or other people who have moved on and accepted some of the tragic things that come along with having some mental illness and being able to create positive lives post that is having somebody reach out and reach out consistently. Mike, you were talking about your sister, you can't. Underestimate, overestimate, you can't minimize the power of just reaching out and saying to somebody, Hey, yeah, And even if they say, yeah, I'm fine. I'm fine. they know that they're not alone. and I think that is the trick. To a lot of moving past, things that are bothering us is understanding that you're not alone. And I think that's a lot of what Sarah and I, and a lot of what Jackie and Ed and you guys are trying to do. Hey, it's a big, scary world and big, scary things happen. And you're not by yourself as you go through them. So that's the one thing I would ask our listeners and you guys is just to keep reminding each other that you're not alone. Those connections are huge. Don't be afraid to reach out. I know. just a little story just from yesterday. we were watching Owen play deck hockey and one of our friends came up and in passing, I said, Hey, how are you? And she was like, and just kept walking. And normally I would have been like, all right, you don't want to talk about it. Fine, whatever. And so she went into the little, concession stand thing. And I was like, I stood there for a minute and I was like, something's wrong. So I followed her and I normally wouldn't do that. And I followed her and I said, Hey, what's going on? There's obviously something's wrong. And she had some bad news in the morning and was just having a rough time. And yeah. She told me what was going on and had a little meltdown and I went in the concession stand with her and gave her a hug, which most people who know me, that's a big deal because I don't do that shit. and just listen to her for a few minutes and I, and that made a difference. And just those little things, even though, at least for me, I was like, I'm not going to be a pest. I'm not going to, but sometimes, just going a little extra second and pushing a little bit. Can make a difference. So obviously I didn't solve her problem or anything, but It was nice to be there. And at the end of everything she was like, I can't believe I got a Sarah hug That's crazy touch people So there you go Creating a nonprofit although creating the nonprofit certainly Made it easier for us to talk about Michael but you don't have to go that far, yeah, you could, yeah, and it's, and I absolutely love the fact that you guys were in a small, neighborhood gang when you were younger, and you've taken that gang experience and turned it into a nonprofit. Yeah. Yes, when we say gang, let's clarify that literally that included, walking the streets, tic tacking, throwing tic tac porn, throwing porn at people's houses like for a month a year. And then the rest of the time, just walking and doing nothing, sometimes tattooing each other and graffiti ing some, no, I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. No, we didn't do that. these are the good kickings. These are very cool. Thanks. That was pretty much it. Riding our bikes. these are bike gags. Wait. Not. Just stop. Just stop. Kickball maybe? Whiffleball. Christine will share all of the, websites and whatnot in the show notes for today. And, We're gonna go ahead and wrap it up. I just want to thank all of you guys for joining us and for being willing to do this. Heather and Mike, especially the two of you. Thank you so much for opening up. I can't imagine that it's an easy thing to share these stories. and your story, Michael story, how you guys have come through it and continue to, to heal. I'm sure it's something that's never gonna, it might grow a little scab over it, but it's never gonna go away. And, we just really appreciate about him and talk about Michael. so much. Yeah, for sure. And we will continue to do We're gonna go ahead and shut her down here, but don't hang up on us yet. We'll just stop the recording and then have a little chat afterwards. So shut it down, Christine.