The Mental Funny Bone

Episode 40: Voluminous Abruptivity At Its Finest

• Gaster Girls • Season 4 • Episode 5

Share episode

Fan Mail Goes Here!!

Laughing Through FOPO: New Year's Shenanigans, Dry January & Mental Wellness


Welcome to 'The Mental Funny Bone!' Sarah and Chris bring you a lively chat about New Year's Eve celebrations, Dry January challenges, and the madness of watching new TV shows too late into the night. They share hilarious family anecdotes, like ‘The Holdup Game,’ tales of beer-fetching races, and more funny stories about growing up with Jumbo. On a serious note, they delve into FOPO (fear of other people's opinions) and how it impacts their lives and mental health. They discuss identity, resilience, and learning from failures, all while maintaining a perfect blend of humor and heartfelt moments. Tune in for tons of laughs and introspective insights into navigating life’s chaotic mess.

00:00 Welcome to the Mental Funny Bone

00:22 New Year's Eve Recap

00:48 Dry January Plans

02:11 TV Show Binge-Watching

08:02 Fan Mail Appreciation

09:38 Jumbo Parenting Stories

16:31 Mental Wellness Discussion

19:17 Sweaty Feet and Nostalgia

19:55 Exploring Performance-Based Identity

21:15 Defining Identity Beyond Performance

23:01 The Impact of External Validation

25:43 Learning from Failures

28:41 Purpose-Driven Identity

32:16 Personal Reflections and Growth

41:44 Conclusion and Next Steps

How to find mental health help when you're struggling. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists
https://washingtoncountyhumanservices.com/agencies/behavioral-health-developmental-services
https://www.alleghenycounty.us/Services/Human-Services-DHS/Publications/Resource-Guides
Apps - Just search mental health where you get your apps.
EAP programs are a great place to look for help!!

Additional Resources (Sports Related):
https://globalsportmatters.com/health/2020/12/04/mental-health-resources-2/

Sarah:

Hi, welcome to the mental funny bone. I'm Sarah. She's Chris. We are not mental health professionals, but we'll talk about some fun mental health stuff. I don't know if fun and mental health stuff goes, whatever. But if you do need serious mental health assistance, please dial 988 or go to our show notes and click on one of those links.

Chris:

New Year's Eve. How was your, how was your New Year's Eve?

Sarah:

Freaking wonderful. It was fantastic. I was up until 3am actually. This is after looking at my watch and going, it's eight o'clock. There's no fucking way I'm making it till midnight. Then I ended up being awake until 3am and even better. I was not even hung over yesterday.

Chris:

That is a, that is amazing.

Sarah:

I was able to get up and clean the house after our party. Cause we hosted, and it was fun. And now we are into January, and you know what January is for me?

Chris:

Dry January.

Sarah:

Dry January! My liver's doing a little dance, like, and then like that part of my brain that really likes the booze is like, what the fuck? What if they have Pepsi?

Chris:

What if they have Pepsi?

Sarah:

Cause normally I say, do you have Pepsi or Coke? And if they say Pepsi, I say, okay, I'll have a Miller Lite.

Chris:

There's a thing on Facebook where there's a girl who tries to order an apple juice and they don't have it. And she's like, fine, I'll have a Bloody Mary. Right.

Sarah:

Exactly. We'll see how it goes. But, uh, I'm actually excited about Dry January.

Chris:

Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give it a try this year. It will have sort of minimal impact. Cause I'm not traveling a whole lot, but um, there are like two trips where I'm possibly going to meet clients while I'm in Raleigh. So there's, I think that would be the big challenge for me.

Sarah:

That's actually why I did not do Dry January last year because we had a big, I mean, but I only travel once a year. I mean, this year we weren't invited, uh, so I dodged that bullet. But last year, bless you, last year, that is why, um, that's why I didn't do dry January because we were traveling and I, I didn't want to not drink.

Chris:

We'll see how it goes.

Sarah:

So there you go. How was your New Year's?

Chris:

It was, it was good. I'm trying to remember what I did. David and I started watching a new series, right, called, uh, Landman, Landman.

Sarah:

I feel like that's something I don't want to watch.

Chris:

It, like, I thought it was a superhero thing, but it's not.

Sarah:

I just see, like, uh, you know what I, comes into my head as Groot.

Chris:

No, no, it wasn't. It's not even, it's not even superhero related.

Sarah:

No, not as a superhero, but like Landman, like a guy who looks like Groot. Talking about how he survives off of the land.

Chris:

No, no, not like, not like that at all. It's a, uh, it's the, anyway, it's got Billy Bob, Billy Bob Thornton. Um, he's so good in it that there are parts where I laughed out loud. And that hardly ever happens in a TV show. Somebody also gets horribly injured every episode.

Sarah:

Nope. We'll not watch it. We'll absolutely that's a that is a hard stop. Hard stop.

Chris:

It is about oil fields in Texas. Also, Jon Hamm is in it, and I am a

Sarah:

I like Jon Hamm. I

Chris:

do too.

Sarah:

I feel I'm

Chris:

Jon Hamm and uh, Billy Bob Thornton and it yeah, it's just it's just crazy. Just a crazy, crazy show. There's ten episodes. I think we did like six in one night and David always has to be the distributor of the episodes cause I'll just watch all ten and not go to bed. Yeah,

Sarah:

that's how I am too.

Chris:

So he's like, we're gonna stop after this one. And I'm like, well,

Sarah:

I mean, I say that before every episode, like once we get to nine o'clock, I'm like, yeah, we're gonna, we're done. We're done after this one.

Chris:

And

Sarah:

then like, ah, it's only 10 o'clock. It's fine. One more. It's only 11. It's fine. We can get one more in there. One more. Like normal adults don't go to bed until after the news anyway. Okay. So we can, that's always my, but it's still, it's then I'm like, well, it's a midnight. Ah, what's one more at this point.

Chris:

Right. Right, somewhere in that last episode, you're like, well, does it even matter now? Yeah. I'm gonna get less than five hours of

Sarah:

sleep. I'm gonna get shit sleep no matter what, so I may as well just watch it all.

Chris:

It matters in the morning, like when the alarm goes off at six, and I'm like, great, I have had four hours of sleep, and I am really, really tired.

Sarah:

Yep.

Chris:

And I really have a lot of shit to do. So that is, that's what, that's what we're doing here is watching Landman. We only have like three more episodes to go though, so I don't know what we're gonna do after that.

Sarah:

I watched Juror number two yesterday.

Chris:

Well, that sounds, that sounds

Sarah:

good. It's on max. Owen actually watched it with me. It was pretty good. I enjoyed it. I can say that it ended and I went what the fuck? So.

Chris:

Because you were so sad it was over or because it was just weird?

Sarah:

Cause I wanted, I wanted it to do something else.

Chris:

I see. I see. You didn't write it. Not

Sarah:

that I, I didn't want it. Like, I feel like it ended the way that I knew it was going to end, that I feel like it should end, but it was just abrupt. It was abrupt. And I didn't like the abrupt, abruptivity of it.

Chris:

Abruptivity. I like that

Sarah:

word. I've made that up. Abruptivity. Yes. Yes. That's what we should do. Um, I should. One more thing to mention. We went to see a Pearl Jam cover band on Friday 10 at, um, at the stage house craft beer place in the South Hills. Um, It was one, our old friend that we used to work with actually owns the bar. So we got to see him and his wife, which was fantastic. Um, and then we, and then we got to watch this Pearl Jam band and they were, they were pretty good. I mean, my standards, I thought they were great. No, I thought they were good. You know, he's a big Pearl Jam fan and he was like, well, well, here's what we talked about getting the tickets. And I said, when they, this was weeks ago and I was like, dude. I went on like the cheapest there was like 300 bucks. I said, I really, like, I've never seen them live. So I feel like that would be a great experience. But we also don't really have 300 just laying around. So what we can do is just clear out the garage, play some Pearl Jam music or even, you know, go down the basement that we have now and just listen to Pearl Jam music. And I mean, if we could hoot and holler a little bit if you want, I don't know. But anyway, after this, he was like, no, if you thought that was good, then, then we need to buy tickets. And I was like, yeah, no. No, I'm not. No, I'm not. That's a lot. It's a lot of freaking money. And he was like, wait, you've never seen them. Like we've been married for 16 years. He's going to listen to this. And I specifically said to him, I've never seen them

Chris:

recently.

Sarah:

Okay. Next.

Chris:

Next. Um, I sent Olivia and her friend on a quest. Um, I've been moisturizing, I've been using a specific moisturizer on my face for a pretty long time and I'm out of it and they don't make it anymore. So it's time to get a new moisturizer. And I also noticed that like some, yeah, like there's, there's just spots on my face that have scars or, but maybe a tinted moisturizer, like something to put on at night and then a nice tinted moisturizer for the daytime. I So, I am wearing said tinted moisturizer and I feel, feel pretty good about it today. It looks great. It looks great. I was going to

Sarah:

say, you look very, no, I was going to say voluminous, but I don't think that's the right word.

Chris:

Luminous. I look radiant.

Sarah:

Luminous. That's what it is. I was going to say voluminous, but

Chris:

I don't think that's the right

Sarah:

word. Luminous is what I meant.

Chris:

When I was heavier. Uh, David, uh, David paid me a compliment, and he's like,

Sarah:

You look very voluminous. Because

Chris:

he wanted to say voluptuous.

Sarah:

Even that! Even that! Nope.

Chris:

I was like, okay, thank you. No, that's great, but

Sarah:

no.

Chris:

Voluminous. All right, let's do this episode. Are you going to talk about fan mail?

Sarah:

Fan mail! We got an awesome, uh, fan mail from Jamie R. No, her name's not Jamie R. Well, yeah, it is. I don't give a fuck. Jamie R. It was about our interview with Michelle Kapotz, which I personally thought was a wonderful interview. Nice.

Chris:

It was really good.

Sarah:

Um, yeah. So, she just said that it was, it was amazing stuff and just giving me a little, what's the word? You know? Yeah, a little boost. A little boost. Um, about my honesty and, and vulnerability during that episode, which is a little bit rough for me to watch the second time over. Right. And very rough for me to leave it in there. That made me do a lot of this. Anyway, so I appreciate for calling that out and she said, I hear you and I get you. Cool. Know that you're not alone.'cause we've all fucked up stuff that we tried and thought would turn out different. And yes, it's exhausting and certainly not motivating to get out there and do it again. But you deserve to find your thing and I know you're on the right track, so

yay.

Sarah:

Yay. And that made me feel awesome. So thank you. Thank you Jamie. R And it's hard not to just say the R, like, that's what I wanted. Say.

Chris:

You said it. I just made a little note to.

Sarah:

Did I say?

Chris:

You did. Yeah.

Sarah:

Fuck. All right. Well, anyway, I got

Chris:

it. I'll fix

Sarah:

it. And she loved how we ended it with the message of, you know, we're not alone and holding space for someone else is more than enough. So thank you, Jamie R. Jamie R. Love

Chris:

ya.

Sarah:

So that's it for our fan mail today. Want to talk a little bit about, uh, Jumbo?

Chris:

Yeah. Let's tell, let's tell some Jumbo parenting stories.

Sarah:

Yeah, I thought that we might, because there's some fun things that, that, that we could do. Jumbo used to do. The, the cops and robbers one, I don't know if I was around for that one. I think that was before I was born because I just know that from hearing it. I don't ever remember it. I recall it fondly.

Chris:

Just as a, just as a little note, uh, those of you who have been with us for more than a couple of episodes, um, you'll quickly pick up on the fact that we can't remember more than two episodes back.

Sarah:

I can't remember one episode back.

Chris:

I have no recollection of what we said in July last year. I have vague memories. of it until somebody reminds me of it. So for those of you who might be newer, you're gonna love these stories.

Sarah:

I just want to say it. I was thinking of this too, like, fuck, we're gonna, we're gonna repeat stories and shit, but we've had a lot of friends in our lives like for a long time that I'm pretty sure have heard all of these stories a thousand times and again, and they still, they still love them.

Chris:

Still funny. I was just gonna say. And I mean, I laugh at

Sarah:

them every time and I've been hearing them and living them for a very long

Chris:

time. Right. This is more of a tribute to Jumbo than anything else we can do because Jumbo will tell the same story 50 times. And I will

Sarah:

laugh just as hard. Every time.

Chris:

Alright, so when Jumbo was a new dad, Uh, he would come home from work and he would just want a couple of minutes like most new dads. He would just want a couple of minutes to kind of settle in, read the paper, make that transition from work life to home life. And, uh, Nita and I, uh, both just wanted a whole bunch of attention because Nita had been taking care of me all day. And I had been, you know, dadless all day. So I was like, Someone

Sarah:

knew, someone knew, someone knew. I want to play,

Chris:

I want to play, I want to play, I want to play. And I don't, I probably was still like this when I was, when I was younger. Like when I wanted to play, I wanted to play. So what Jumbo would do is uh, he would, he made up this game and he was a bank robber. And he would come in, he would, he would hold up his uh, finger guns. And he would come into the bank, um, and this is all while he's seated in a chair with the paper folded in his lap. So he'd have his finger guns and he would tell me, Hey, you freeze. And I would freeze. And, uh, he'd be like, all right, this is a holdup. This is a holdup. So it's a holdup and he's like, lay down on the ground, put your face in the ground and, and don't, don't move. And I think this might've been before I was able to count. So he couldn't give me a number to count to. He would just, uh, tell me to lay down with my face in the carpet and not move. And then every once in a while, I would like look up or make some sort of movement and he would, he would yell it again. Hey. No moving. And he'd have the finger guns. I would peek up and he'd have the finger guns. Um, meanwhile, when I had my face in the carpet, Jumbo's just reading the paper. Sitting there turning the pages of the paper. Um, and I am on the floor with my, my face in it. And every, like, even if I, sometimes I wouldn't move and he would go like randomly, Hey,

Sarah:

Hey! And you were, you were face down in shag carpeting, I guarantee. Like face down in smoke smelling, shag ass carpeting.

Chris:

There was a bunny in there that I made friends with, there were tiny. And it was

Sarah:

so itchy and scratchy.

Chris:

Carpet animals. Right. Like face buried in the car, like I couldn't know peripheral vision cause there was shag carpeting.

Sarah:

And you were, your one eye didn't work.

Chris:

Shut up. They both work now. So that is, uh, that is some, uh, jumbo parenting secrets. So,

Sarah:

uh, if you're new, if you're new dad or mom, whatever, this is a great way to get, uh, your toddler to leave you alone for a little while. Oh, we're playing. Face down. I'll play with you. Yeah, we'll play face down. I'm not sure it would have worked with Owen though, because I think he would have just, he would have been like, fine, then shoot me. I mean, I'm done.

Chris:

I was a very compliant child. I was the firstborn, like I wanted very compliant. Alright, um, other Jumbo stories? What are you doing with your camera there?

Sarah:

I'm sorry, I have to mute something. Yeah, the only one I, uh, the only other one I, well, there's a couple, and it seemed, I feel like when I mention it, you don't remember taking Daddy's shoes off when we would get home. Uh uh. And he was drunk. I don't know. Maybe mom, you'll have to give us a, tell us when this started. I don't know. Cause I, I very much remember coming home and daddy was drunk and he'd flop down on the bed. Girls, get my shoes off. Maybe it was just Sarah. Get my shoes off. But yeah, there was the taking off of the shoes and then, um, I feel like something else that everybody does that's well known, but it just always cracked me up was the racing for the beer. I'll time you, just the specific timing or, um, you girls race. I'm not sure, I don't really remember us ever racing, though. Do you?

Chris:

It would have been, it would have been unfair. I mean, we're five years apart.

Sarah:

But I was always faster than you, so it doesn't matter.

Chris:

I would, which, which is really funny, because I was like, oh, I would have beat the shit out of her.

Sarah:

I would have treated it like that, that race that we had in Eaton Park, parking lot, and I would have just hip checked you right the fuck out of my way.

Chris:

First off, it was at Denny's.

Sarah:

Oh yeah, it was. Where we were

Chris:

racing in the parking lot. Um, secondly, there was a time where I was significantly bigger than you. Like you couldn't have hip checked me because you were a tot legged baby. Yeah, like

Sarah:

two years ago you were significantly bigger than me. Shut

Chris:

up.

Sarah:

Okay, okay. When you were like six and I was two.

Chris:

Yeah. It wouldn't have been any fun. And then I, I just, I, I chose not to participate at a certain point. Right? Cause I was like. Yeah.

Sarah:

Like, this is dumb. I'm not doing it.

Chris:

I'm 12. But the

Sarah:

timing, and you always, like, at least I always set the record. But his counting was similar to how I would count for Owen. Like, okay, ready, go. One.

Chris:

Continue on with my conversation, and the kid finally returns with the beer. That's a

Sarah:

new record! Yeah! It was a big celebration. So, um, yeah, fun jumbo things. That's really all I had. Just some cute little basic stories for this week.

Chris:

Maybe that's the advantage of having, having two children, is that you get to extend out the time where people will play those kind of games.

Sarah:

Yeah. That's probably why they had me, really.

Chris:

To get the beers.

Sarah:

It's like, I need a beer runner. And eventually they'll have kids, so I'll have grandkids that'll run and get me the beers.

Chris:

This one is gonna be, this one is gonna figure out the trick. She won't play anymore.

Sarah:

I'm pretty sure that Owen will still play if you give him five dollars. Right.

Chris:

It comes with a monetary cost at this point. It's

Sarah:

no longer a race for a record, it's a money thing. I'll give you a

Chris:

dollar. Yeah. If it elapses.

Sarah:

Yep. Nevermind.

Chris:

All right. Let's get into, let's get into our, uh, mental wellness, uh, section here. So again, you good there? Are you hydrated?

Sarah:

Yeah. That's the, I'm hydrated. The I'm dehydrated and need a drink is,

Chris:

ugh, people are crying. I'm definitely cutting out all of those noises. And then you

Sarah:

take a, you take a little drink and you go, that means I'm all hydrated.

Chris:

Gross. Cutting it all out. Um, the first rule of mastery. is the book we are reading. So, uh, last week, uh, we caught up on chapters one through three. Um, a couple weeks ago we talked about Beethoven.

Sarah:

My favorite.

Chris:

Right. And didn't

Sarah:

even know he was going deaf.

Chris:

Nope. Nobody knew.

Sarah:

Pretty fucking amazing.

Chris:

Except for everybody. So some of the things we talked about last week. So chapter, uh, chapter one is all about sort of defining FOPO, the fear of other people's opinions. And that's kind of the. Moral of the story that B. Thoven was talking about is that he let, he let his fear of other people's opinion of his deafness hold him back when he could have just been making beautiful music during the years where, uh, where he was, you know, kind of hiding from that. And then we talked about the mechanics of, of FOPO. So kind of what FOPO is and isn't. We as human beings have a, uh, innate. sense of wanting to belong, wanting to be a part of the pack, because that's how we survived a long time ago. So, so as people, we're constantly looking around for clues that we're, that we're fitting in, that we're part of the group, that we're able to maintain and keep those connections. And FOPO becomes a problem when we start thinking about what might happen, not what is happening. We start thinking about what might happen and, and then we prevent that pretend rejection that hasn't happened yet by changing or modifying what we're, we're doing. So a lot of the things that lead to FOPO are sort of a poor sense of self, like relying completely on those reactions to tell you who you are as a person, like. I think we talked about it. Oh, yeah, we talked about it a lot last time being a middle, uh, middle school girl and looking at how you dress and being like, well, obviously I want to be in the group of cool kids. So I'm going to wear four pairs of slouchy socks with my high tops. Cause that's what did we,

Sarah:

did we get bigger shoes in that, in those times we just bought bigger shoes. Like, and now like, I hate, I hate bigger shoes. Like I feel like if I'm wearing a half a size bigger than what I should be aware, like my actual size, my feet look like boats and I don't like it, but I don't, that's just, it's amazing to me. We were wearing four pairs of socks,

Chris:

right? Like

Sarah:

that's a lot of laundry too.

Chris:

Right. And your feet had to be so hot. So

Sarah:

fucking sweaty. Oh my, my feet are sweating right now. I'm just thinking about it as a reaction to this. Like 17 pairs of socks and some, some plastic ass LA gears.

Chris:

LA gears. Oh my God. Like the black high tops. My God. So you had,

Sarah:

and then you had 17 shoelaces to go with them. Like there

Chris:

was a lot of time. We were

Sarah:

dumb.

Chris:

Right. A hundred percent. Stupid, stupid people. But we were cool. You were cool.

Sarah:

I still think that's a, maybe, maybe.

Chris:

Right. So one of the other things that kind of leads to, you know, fast tracking yourself to some, um, holding, holding back behavior based on, uh, FOPO is a performance based identity. You know, one of the things we're going to, well, the only thing we're going to talk about this week is, uh, identity. We're going to talk about that performance based identity and how we can use our identities to either feed in to the FOPO or take some steps to make ourselves sort of FOPO proof. Right. FOPOP, FOPOP, I love it. FOPOP. Yeah. Um, so we're going to spend a good deal of time talking about identity. Identity goes back to what are my values? So I think everything that we've talked about in this podcast up to this point has been, how do I figure it out? How do I figure out what I'm supposed to be doing? Like, who am I? What are my values? What I wrote in my notes is when everything crashes and burns, what will I be left with? So a lot of, a lot of the fear that we feel when we're talking about FOPO, a part of that base fear is anticipating what happens when everything crashes and burns. Like, what if I am ostracized? What if I'm out here by myself? What if these things happen? What, uh, what am I left with? And what you're left with is your identity. So it's the subjective sense of self built on experiences, beliefs, values, memories, and culture. That's the, that's the definition that we're working with here. So there's a lot of, uh, there's a lot of quotes and there's a lot of storytelling in this book that I tend to like skip over. Um, Oh, those

Sarah:

are the parts I like the most. And that I note the most.

Chris:

The one in the beginning of the chapter is about a basketball. And I can't remember the name of the player, Carl Malone. Is it Carl? Yeah.

Sarah:

Mm hmm. Yep, and he was playing against the Bulls. So it was the Jazz and the Bulls.

Chris:

No idea. Yeah, not much of a basketball. It was

Sarah:

Jazz and the Bulls and Scotty Pippen was passing him as he was walking near the field. free throw line. And it's FIFO line. And it's became English there for a second. It was 82, 82 with nine seconds left and it's tied. Like biggest thing in the world. And this guy like Malone, I want to say Mark Malone, but that's not it. Carl Malone. Yeah. He's like one of the best free free throwers ever. Anyway, he's walking in the line and Scotty Pippin passes him and they used to call Carl Malone. What did they call him? The postman? Cause like the mail, he always delivered. Like a mail, or the mailman. Mailman. Mailman. And um, I guess it was a Sunday they were playing on. And uh, Scotty Pippin passed him up and was like, Melman doesn't deliver on Sundays. And dude missed both shots.

Chris:

Right. I mean, these are, these are like crazy stories and like what that one gets back to is so much of Carl Malone's identity on the basketball court was based on the fact that he delivered and that Scottie Pippen is exactly the right thing to fuck with him. That's kind of what. What happens when we are basing our, our self worth on something that's outside of our control. If you base your identity on that and someone guesses with you, then you're like, what if that isn't who I am? What if I'm not delivering because it's Sunday?

Sarah:

I think it's important that, to note that it's not just about free frost. When we're looking for our identity, that it's a cumulative thing. It's not just one particular thing. It draws from many aspects in our lives. And we need to remember that it's not one thing that defines our identity. Our identity is something, in my mind, that's fluid. It's not something that stays the same. When I was 21, I wasn't able to say, Hey, my identity is fluid. Red Bull and vodka. But yeah, my identity now as a 46 year old mom is a lot different than it was when I was 21 ringing in the new year on the Vegas strip,

Chris:

right?

Sarah:

Michael Gervais says identity can morph over time. Based on the knowledge we gain about ourselves through experience and how we apply that knowledge in our lives. But we need to understand that it's not just one thing. And here's where he quotes one of my favorites, the fight club quote, and it's, you're not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You are not the car you drive. You are not the contents of your wallet and you are not your fucking khakis.

Chris:

Right. You are not your khakis. So we're, we're obsessed in our culture with performance. Everything's data driven. If I can't measure it, I can't improve it. If you just look at athletics, the statistics drive a lot of decision making involved in, in everything that we do. As a person who deals in data and numbers, I can't, can't provide enough detail on data when I'm making decisions. So everything, everything is data driven, um.

Sarah:

And that's not just in work, like data driven decisions, data driven this. When you look at the social media side of it, you're looking at how many followers you have, the likes that you have, the social reach that you have, can get really, really stuck.

Chris:

That's, that's the thing with performance based identities and being able to measure so much is that performance based identities do really well. When we can can measure a performance based person and, you know, through all of school, as long as I was doing well on the tests, then everything else fell by the wayside. It doesn't matter. Nothing else matters. As long as I'm performing, as long as I'm still getting good grades, as long as my teachers are recognizing that I'm getting good grades. Yes, I'm doing great. I'm doing great. I'm doing better than that guy. I'm doing better than that girl. I'm still getting A's. I am a genius. Those work for a little bit, but they're not sustainable. I spent my time in graduate school looking at my performance on exams as the way to validate that I was smart and I knew what I was doing. When I should have been looking at, do I know what I'm doing? Do I understand the material that I'm learning? I'll give you a good example. When I was in undergraduate, I earned like a B minus in one of my classes, maybe a C plus. It was, it was a, it was a great, I didn't know. I did not want because I had, I'd screwed up like the first couple of tests and, um, then I just never really recovered after that. So I, I, I earned a bad grade in this particular class, but I was on pretty good terms with the teacher and I'm pretty. You know, engaging as a person. And I was like, well, maybe this isn't C plus or whatever. Maybe it's just an A minus. I mean, look at my final, you know, you can see me improving. I mean, in no way, shape or form did I know this material at all. I had crammed for each of those tests right at the last minute. miraculously done a little bit better on each one, right? So when I got to graduate school, I had to take that class over again because I wasn't going to understand anything that came after that. But the measure of everything was that great. And that's really all that mattered until I needed the knowledge. And then I was like, well, shit. So, so basing your identity at me being a smart person in math on whether or not I got a good grade. Got a good grade is looking for that external validation and it didn't matter that I didn't know the stuff. Somebody said I did a good job, so I did a good job. When, when I really sat down and thought about it and that got sort of pulled away, then it's a problem for me because I need to admit that I'm not a smart person in math until I can actually know that material. It was a cumbling thing. When we base our worth on our performance, we stop trying to extend and stop trying to go beyond what we already know. Like, you lose that freedom to test yourself outside of, uh, outside of those measurements. Because you're so worried about being so perfect that you can't, that you can't fail. And looking, taking a hard look at whether or not I knew that material was essentially admitting a failure. I don't know it. I'm going to have to take this class again. Part of the thing that, that you want to do is be able to, um, Extend yourself through learning, uh, about the, the shit. Um, if you can commit to learning and purpose, uh, you can start to protect yourself from, from FOBO. If you can, if you can stop looking at it like, Oh, I'm not even going to try that because if I try it and I fail, then, then I'll confirm that I'm not any good in my personality symbols. Um, but if I can look at it like, Alright, I'm not going to think less of myself. I'm going to, I'm going to try this and then I'm going to take what I've done here and learn, uh, extend my personality, extend my identity, uh, and base my identity on somebody who, who can take that failure and learn from it. And that's a purpose driven, uh, that's a purpose driven identity. No,

Sarah:

no. It makes sense. You're good.

Chris:

So that is where we can start to protect ourselves from that FOPO. What can I learn from this versus who can I impress with this? So if you go back to the example of graduate school, look at me, I'm, I have a very good GPA to shit. I didn't do so good in this class and I really need to learn it. So I'm going to stick with my B minus and maybe retake that class when I should have retaken it instead of trying to do it three weeks before graduate school started. Those are the ways that you can move from performance to purpose. Looking from external to internal and I think one of the things that you wrote down is not Thinking less of yourself, but thinking of yourself less often like it doesn't it doesn't matter what anybody else thinks about you It's like It, it's your ability to move yourself forward, I think is the, the way that I always think about it. Does that make sense?

Sarah:

Yeah. To learn from it. I really like, how do you pronounce that word? Bulwark?

Chris:

Yeah.

Sarah:

I really, cause I had to look it up. I was like, what the fuck is that? It's a defensive wall. So a bulwark against FOPO is having a strong sense of self. I just wanted to read that so I could say bulwark and try to figure out how I can put it into more of my vocabulary on a daily basis. Okay. Um, the other thing I wrote here is just something that goes along with what I talked about earlier is that our identity is something that's fluid that we're constantly addressing and constantly looking into. And I like what he wrote here. There's a couple things, one that he wrote, and then it was another quote from someone else. I didn't write down their name, but anchoring ourself, anchoring our sense of self in discovery is not a cop out to avoiding committing to who we are. It's simply an acknowledgement that we change with time. So we're always changing and we always have to be aware of that. And the quote is human beings are works in progress that mistakenly think they're finished

Chris:

that part of it goes back to uh Your performance based identities are based on a series of if then statements, right? Like if I get any of this class then i'm then i'm worthwhile Then I am the person who is smart if I win wimbledon Then i'm a good tennis player like if then if then if then if then where purpose driven is more of a You Let's, let's see what happens. This is what I want to do right now. This is important to me right now. Let me, let me see if I can carry this forward.

Sarah:

You keep building on that, but achieving the performance based objective, it's only temporary.

Chris:

Yeah.

Sarah:

And it's great when you, when you finish that, Oh, I won the gold medal. Fantastic. What's next. Like you're moving directly into something else and it's just constant. You're not going to have a sustained satisfaction, which is what we're talking about. The performance based is not sustainable. And then the other thing I wrote here is the pursuit of excellence and high performance is important. We learn about ourselves by doing difficult things and testing the boundaries of our perceived limits. When the core motivation of pursuing excellence Excellence is proving our self worth. Mistakes, failures, opinions, and criticism are experienced as threats instead of learning opportunities. So it's not just about myself, but more about your awareness and what you can learn from each of these things.

Chris:

Yeah, if you, if you can commit to learning and purpose, purpose is not a prerequisite for high performance, but you can use that purpose to build resilience. And I think that is the thing that drives high performance, being able to fail miserably and understand that I am still a worthwhile person. I mean, I think if you go back to April, this is what we were talking about, because we were talking about me going on job interviews. And And me for the first time in my life, not having something a hundred percent lined up and ready to go. For so long, my identity was based on me going to get this dream job at this dream company. And that's going to be the thing that, that makes me who I am going back to the whole thing crashes and burns. Right? What's left? I'm still smart at my job. I'm still good at what I do. I still have value outside of what this company thinks about me. I still have value outside of whatever led to that decision that they didn't hire me. Those are things external to me. And the thing that brings you through those things is I, I'm still a good person. I'm still just as smart as I was yesterday. Nothing about that rejection really changes fundamentally who I am. So yeah,

Sarah:

and you learn, you learn from that and that's the resilience part of it, right? And I, as I was reading, I thought it was pretty cool that, that this, um, would be coming out after our Michelle interview, because I think a lot of it goes along what I talked about. I failed at so many fucking things. I just don't even want to try anymore. But, it's not just about me failing, it's about me learning from those things, and it's about me digging deeper. Yeah, so I've been working with Michelle since we did the interview, and she's officially my coach. And um, and yeah, it's been wonderful, and I've, I've learned a lot. I've learned a lot about my identity that I didn't even realize was there. Again, not think less of yourself. There's nothing wrong with me. It's not the failure part that I should be focusing on. I need to be learning, and I'm looking at those experiences a lot differently.

Chris:

Yes. Yeah, I think, you know.

Sarah:

I think it's worth mentioning the Missy Franklin story. She was a gold medalist, and so she was swimming forever. And her parents did a really good job making sure that she had an identity. Trying to help her build that identity outside of swimming. Like she even said, Missy, their daughter, I was Missy, the friend, Missy, the student, all of those things before I was Missy, the swimmer. And so they instilled that in her throughout her whole life. And she was very successful. I forget exactly which Olympic games it was, but then she went on to Rio and I guess she only won one medal and it was, she considered that to be a failure. And at that point she was completely lost. And that's because she's herself. identity was swimming. That's all she identified. That's how she lived her life at that time. So it was really hard for her to come out of that and deal with that failure because that's all that she was. And that's even someone who, again, has really strong parents who were trying to instill in her that that's not all she was. Sometimes outwardly, we were providing as a parent, we're providing what we need for our kids, but sometimes Sometimes it doesn't totally sink in, so we still need to be around because sometimes they need help picking up the pieces.

Chris:

Right. I mean, I, we, we talk about it all the time with the emphasis that we put on, on our little student athletes. Not playing soccer anymore after I was done playing soccer is hard. That's a hard thing to give up. And it did kind of mess with me for a little bit. Like part of my identity was being on the soccer team. And then all of a sudden I wasn't. Part of this chapter also talks about people who have had FOPO give themselves built in excuses. And I do this all the time. I will leave a task up until the very end and then rush through finishing it. And then if somebody criticizes it, I'm like, I left it until the very end. So, of course it's not perfect, but it would have been, it would have been in my pretend reality where I actually tried and, and gave a shit about doing a good presentation.

Sarah:

That makes me think of how I, like, and I, I would still say it. I, my soccer, what's the word I'm looking for? My soccer talent, I feel like I kind of really stopped growing at the rate that I could have at probably 14 or 15. And I always say that, like, I'm always like, yeah, I could have been so much better. I could have done so much more if I didn't basically give up then. But, I mean, I don't know. It's hard. And it's still stuff, and, and working with Michelle, it's, it's odd that it's stuff that's hard for me to talk about because I was 18 when I quit, or 19 when I quit. Like, whatever. Um, and it was so long ago, and in my brain, it was fairly insignificant. But, um, 46 and just learning that it was actually a really

Chris:

challenging, hard for you to do. impactful decision to make. I, I will fill everyone in. She's crying a little bit. So we're just going to, I'm just going to talk until she, she gets it together.

Sarah:

Because if I start talking, then I hoot and I'm like, daddy, and then I get really, really ugly crying. So, um, yeah, but it was very, very significant part of my life that I've never given the time to.

Chris:

When we say that this shit is hard, this is what we're talking about. We can have superficial discussions about term papers and presentations. Uh, or we can, we can have these discussions about what building an identity is really about and what we, we want to change and do differently about our, our own identities. Uh, what I, what I wrote down in my notes here is we will do a lot of fucked up shit to protect our identity. And some of that is really kind of counterintuitive. Like I'm not going to try real hard because it's so important to me to cling to the, what could have been that I won't, I won't make myself vulnerable enough. To actually learn and get better at it. You will have chosen to preserve your identity rather than to use the challenge as an opportunity to learn something about yourself. That is the soul of what we're trying to get at it. Not just, not just through this book, but in this podcast and in our, in our lives. Right. That's why it touches so many like tender nerves is that this is the hardship. This is the shit that makes a difference. And

Sarah:

yeah,

Chris:

yeah, we could protect our identities by saying, Oh, everything's fine here, but when we, when we can do what we just did and open up and be like, yeah, I, maybe I messed that up. How do I move forward from that? Like that's the, that's the stuff that you can use to fight off the FOPO.

Sarah:

Yeah. That's a long time to not. In my mind, it's not that significant. I can only imagine like major covering that up. So fuck. It's something that I was in working with her that I was, wait, it was a big part of it and I never addressed it. I never talked about it. You know, people ask, why'd you quit soccer? Well, because I wanted to, to drink and smoke. That's not why I quit soccer. I'm still, I still don't know why I quit soccer, but that was the easy answer.

Chris:

Right. That's the, that's the hard homework that, that we all have is to look at it. And I think for me, one of the big things was being able to. understand that if I keep comparing myself to people, like, and I think that's, that's the, that's also the part. That's the

Sarah:

awareness. It's just asking those questions. It's stopping and being a little more aware of what's going on instead of just going with that knee jerk reaction.

Chris:

Like you said, that's that awareness piece. That's that first part of it. Being able to, you know, pretty major regrets about how long I sat in my career, not trying as hard as I could have. Not trying to be first, not trying to be more, not trying to to do things that I thought would kind of move myself and, and not put myself out there, maybe is the best way to say it.

Sarah:

I'm not gonna put myself out there because of faux pas.

Chris:

Right. I think that's like the definition of it. I am not going to speak up. I am not going to, I'm not going to try. And then when, when I finally got to the point where something clicked and I was like, it doesn't matter. I'm still going to

Sarah:

be

Chris:

good at this job regardless

Sarah:

of

Chris:

who gets that promotion, who, who gets to deliver the, the monthly slides. It doesn't have as much of an impact. And I think when you can have that awareness, you can really, you can really fight off your FOPO. I'm not solely based on this one thing, and I think the rest of the book and the rest of our experiences with this is going to be about getting back to that identity. What is it about you that, that makes you, uh, that makes you who you are and what measures do you use? So going all the way back to, um, the subtle art of not giving a fuck, how you measure a successful life is going to be the thing that keeps you from. You know, putting yourself out there and doing great things. It's going to keep you from being resilient in times where shit just burns to the ground. It's going to make it longer for you to recover from those things. And it's going to make you more fearful and make sure that those things never happen. I think the last thing I have in here is the Ted Lasso. When we're, when we're talking about measuring success, success externally versus internally. Um, it's not about the wins and the losses. It's about making these young men decent human beings. It's about the lessons that you learn from, from those losses. And if you can base your identity on something that isn't measured externally, like wins and losses, that you can actually appreciate those losses for what they are, which is opportunities to learn and do better.

Sarah:

Absolutely.

Chris:

I'm really, really looking forward to like the next couple of chapters. So next week, if you guys are going to read along, we're going to do five and six. Thanks. And then we're going to get into the part two. So I think part one is just setting, setting everything up on, you know, some things that can prevent you from falling into FOPO and then we'll get some practical, practical advice and some knowledge in the, in the other parts. So. That's what I got for you.

Sarah:

Well done. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed this chapter. Um, and I think the rest of this is going to be fun. Interesting. There's a lot of digging. Yeah, it's

Chris:

hard, but it's so worth it. I mean, I think you can kind of get a flavor of FOPO and how damaging and, and

Sarah:

Yeah. How

Chris:

hard it is to live that kind of life and how thrilling I don't think we

Sarah:

realize, and it comes back to awareness, if you're not aware of the FOPO, you have no clue how much it really is hurting you. And once you become aware of that, it's, it's such a game changer. It really is.

Chris:

Yeah.

Sarah:

Um, and just thinking about FOPO versus, you know, uh, January 2nd, 2024 versus January 2nd, 2025. Oh

Chris:

my God.

Sarah:

Like, I mean, life is a lot different.

Chris:

It really is. And life is a

Sarah:

lot different because of what we've been doing.

Chris:

Yes.

Sarah:

Um, so I mean, that's, that's a huge win and we, we're just going to continue to do it.

Chris:

Yeah, I dig it. I dig it.

Sarah:

And it kind of started with FOPO.

Chris:

It really, it really did. Thank you, Dan Harris. Yeah. Thank you, Mark Manson. I think once, it's like, um, what's the, what's the movie, Better Off Dead? Did you ever see this movie? Um.

Sarah:

I want my 2. Right. That's that one, right?

Chris:

I'm real sorry your mom blew up, Ricky. A great 90s movie. I think what One of the most powerful Oh, in every

Sarah:

movie that John Cusack is in, I'm sorry, I don't care what he wore in any movie, but every and I will see the background of the correct movie, and I know he's in it, and I'm in the right movie, but no matter what, he's always wearing that trench coat. Right,

Chris:

he has a boombox with him in every movie. From Say

Sarah:

Anything? Doesn't matter, like, could be so, like, forever ago, or like yesterday, whatever, that's always what he's wearing.

Chris:

Right, 100%. Sorry, go ahead,

Sarah:

side note.

Chris:

One of the Like that, that movie has a lot of good themes and especially when it comes to, comes to Fopo, which is weird because it is like a throwaway comedy movie from the, from the eighties. But his French girlfriend says, I think if you get a taste of success, you're going to find out how much you like it. And I think Fopo is one of those little successes, like understanding and being aware of it is one is one of those successes that just leads into a richer life experience. So. I'm real sorry your mom blew up, Ricky. Also,

Sarah:

a

Chris:

sense of empathy is important.

Sarah:

Yeah, yeah. All right. Okay. Well, I think that's wrapping it up for today. We will talk to you guys next week.

Chris:

All right.

Sarah:

Later boners. Love you. Bye.

Chris:

Love you.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Christine Kanalis

Host
Head Shot

Sarah Leibhart

Host