The Mental Funny Bone

Bare Bones Banter: Interview 1 with Jacki and Ed Faircloth

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Fan Mail Goes Here!!

It's new!  It's exciting!  It our first episode of Bare Bones Banter!

I do not have the right words to thank Jacki and Ed Faircloth enough for talking to Sarah and me.  (And meeting us for dinner at that barbeque place where Puck Jones used to be.)

These two have taken a personal tragedy and turned it into an opportunity to do really great things for others.

Go to their Facebook and check out what they have going on.  Buy a shirt or two.
 https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61558085344001

How to find mental health help when you're struggling. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists
https://washingtoncountyhumanservices.com/agencies/behavioral-health-developmental-services
https://www.alleghenycounty.us/Services/Human-Services-DHS/Publications/Resource-Guides
Apps - Just search mental health where you get your apps.
EAP programs are a great place to look for help!!

Additional Resources (Sports Related):
https://globalsportmatters.com/health/2020/12/04/mental-health-resources-2/

Chris:

Sarah, if you could introduce Jackie and Ed, that would be amazing.

Sarah:

Sure. Jackie and Ed grew up in Elizabeth. I would say with us, with my sister, because I don't really. I was younger. I was little. I'm the little one. Ed, I, were you older than, okay. So Jackie, you graduated with my sister and Ed, you were

Jacki and Ed:

A year. A year

Sarah:

I did, the young

Jacki and Ed:

I was 90,

Sarah:

I Get

Jacki and Ed:

graduated in 90.

Sarah:

Okay. Yeah. For a second I thought it, I thought you were being funny saying that you were 90 years old. Okay. so far I'm killing the intro. so anyway, we are interviewing Jackie and Ed, because their son Tanner was diagnosed with bipolar, correct?

Jacki and Ed:

Yes,

Sarah:

So he had had some struggles for quite some time before his diagnosis. And then was it in September of last year?

Jacki and Ed:

23. Yeah.

Sarah:

Okay, September of last year. and here's where I get bad with the terminology. Tanner passed away from suicide. Is that how, that's the terminology we want to use.

Jacki and Ed:

yes.

Sarah:

Okay. And I feel like we should keep that in there. in some better way, because I feel like that's something that, was new to me and something that I think our listeners can learn from. this is something that we want to do going forward. We don't want to refer to it as committed suicide. It's died from suicide, passed away from suicide. That's

Jacki and Ed:

Yep. Yes. You're trying to get away from the stigma of being a crime or a, or something like that.

Sarah:

And that's what I thought. I was telling someone else about it and they asked why and I told them I was going to ask you guys. So that's perfect. But that was my assumption that's what we want to do.

Jacki and Ed:

We honestly didn't know about it until we had that happen to us. I don't know how long they've been trying to move it towards that. but I do think it's fairly new.

Sarah:

Yeah, that makes sense. but when we started the, mental funny bone. I believe Christine, you reached out to Jackie and Ed, or did you guys just see it on Facebook that we were starting it and being about mental health? Why don't Oh, okay. So go ahead.

Chris:

So Jackie and Ed posted about March 4th, and I think we had done 1 episode Sarah, but we hadn't actually put it out there yet. So this was even like pre Mental Funny Bone, launch. So it was before we talked about it on Facebook. looking at what Jackie and Edward do. And I was like, yeah, I should definitely help because that sounds like when Jackie started talking about what they were doing with, going in and trying to help Western psych make better decisions. Intake patients a little bit more comfortable. It just struck a chord. Because, watching

Jacki and Ed:

I think Christine might've been our first, like actual donation.

Chris:

Oh, so that was it and, and yeah, I feel like what you guys are doing is amazing and I definitely wanted to help out. And then as we got more into it, Sarah, it was like Jackie and Ed and you and I were going step in. Going in step, right? Like they were asking, they were giving away hoagies at Chipotle and we were announcing things on Facebook. So there was a lot of, cross March 4th and mental funny bone, pathways. So I think that's how we ended up, getting back in touch and, Jackie and I probably had, 11, 12 conversations in high school and I was terrified of Ed.

Jacki and Ed:

I'm going to be terrified of him. I was in that game.

Sarah:

yeah, it was the Gangs of Elizabeth,

Jacki and Ed:

That's funny.

Sarah:

cracks me up because, I just really met you guys last week and I can't imagine you being afraid of Ed in any way whatsoever.

Jacki and Ed:

He's literally the easiest person to like in the world, Christine. He liked everybody and anybody

Sarah:

You are

Chris:

had a lot of,

Sarah:

puss.

Chris:

I honestly,

Jacki and Ed:

worried for no reason.

Chris:

right. I wish I'm shy now. Back then I could barely get three words out before I had to lay down under a desk.

Jacki and Ed:

I know. I think we all do that to ourselves. that's one thing, like you always criticize yourself, but that's why you read the book. subtle art of giving a fuck because people don't really notice the things you're worried about yourself.

Sarah:

Not at all.

Chris:

Exactly. I am,

Jacki and Ed:

about you didn't need to be worried about him.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Chris:

Oh, no. No, I didn't need to be worried about any of those people in the Elizabeth

Jacki and Ed:

No, not at all.

Sarah:

Elizabeth Gang. Before we move on, I would like to note that I knew Jackie's name because I was in love with her brother for a second when I was in ninth grade. So that's a big deal. And yeah.

Jacki and Ed:

And I love that. That's actually how I knew the name

Sarah:

yeah. Yeah.

Jacki and Ed:

don't have friends over there. I was hanging out with my brother. I'm like, it was great when we were dating and I had this cool guy to hang out with and go fishing and then I could come home to my girlfriend. So it was like hours later. And I'm like, what the heck, John, can you please quit playing with Ed? I don't know what to do.

Sarah:

You got to hang out with this adorably cute guy. yeah, I get it. I get it. I get it.

Jacki and Ed:

my mom wouldn't make me go to the wrestling matches. Cause you know, I should go support him, which I wanted to, but so I'd had to come with me, otherwise we wouldn't see each other. And then he got hooked on that too. So you thought ballet was revealing, you go to all those restaurants. Yeah.

Sarah:

Those little singlets. Isn't that what they call them?

Jacki and Ed:

That's pretty impressive. You know what that is? Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah:

because I was stalking John with around trying to learn everything I can learn about wrestling.

Jacki and Ed:

Headlocks and

Sarah:

Wow.

Chris:

down two

Jacki and Ed:

yeah, that's pretty good.

Chris:

I unlocked a memory, after we had dinner with you guys. I, Lynn Daugherty and I were the statisticians for the wrestling team, I think,

Jacki and Ed:

How many were you? Oh, wow. I didn't realize that.

Chris:

yeah, yep, and,

Sarah:

Thank God for Lynn Docherty. She was the closest you got to cool. I don't mean that. I don't mean that against any of your other friends. Stein. I like you too.

Chris:

I had cool friends, I just wasn't cool. were all in that best and most thingy, like most talented most likely to succeed. those were, but I was also most likely to, fall down from embarrassment. If anyone talked to me in the hallway, They don't, have that

Jacki and Ed:

don't have podcasts though. And you do. So yeah. So you are most likely to succeed. Yeah. I

Chris:

a podcast, but why would I? Oh, I had a crush on a wrestler to, whose name I can't. Remember,

Sarah:

Really?

Jacki and Ed:

don't remember who the wrestlers were even. I was so bored at those wrestling matches. I

Chris:

is a, that might've been why I just never worked up the nerve to talk to anybody because I was like, this is fucking boring. just pin him down for God's sake

Sarah:

Yeah. And Jackie, I can imagine that might be disturbing looking at your brother in one of those little singlets.

Jacki and Ed:

didn't think of it that way. Hopefully

Sarah:

Great.

Jacki and Ed:

just win keep

Chris:

oh, my God. Things were going. to cut out

Sarah:

What?

Chris:

weird.

Jacki and Ed:

I became a huge wrestling fan from having to go and watch genre, like I like started paying attention to the point system. And even now I still watch college wrestling and, enjoy it just from that, where she was like, I would just go to hang out with her, but, Yeah.

Sarah:

just give me that, pin him, get the hell out of here.

Chris:

Yes. let's. It doesn't matter how much you weigh, like there were a lot of, there was a lot of focus on how much you weigh and how much sweat you had to remove. And cookies made with Exlax.

Jacki and Ed:

No. Yeah.

Chris:

complex. Yeah, Steve Kaskowski. Is that a

Jacki and Ed:

Oh, yes. Yes. He was. I believe he was in my grade, I think.

Chris:

Yeah. Yes. So

Sarah:

Is he Eric's big brother?

Chris:

maybe.

Jacki and Ed:

He wasn't. I think he was heavyweight. Steve.

Chris:

Yeah.

Jacki and Ed:

Yeah.

Chris:

So He would go at the end.

Jacki and Ed:

Yeah,

Sarah:

Did Steve go to St. Michael's with us? Because Eric went to St. Michael's.

Chris:

yes, they were St. Michael's kids.

Sarah:

Eric passed away.

Chris:

What?

Jacki and Ed:

really?

Sarah:

He played hockey. and, I, I think maybe it had something, he had some issues. I don't know how to put that without getting hit a lot and having some head

Jacki and Ed:

Oh my gosh.

Sarah:

maybe. I may have totally made that up, but I know that he definitely passed away. I went to his funeral. So I know that. so yeah,

Jacki and Ed:

go to,

Sarah:

up?

Jacki and Ed:

guys go to St. Michael's on Town Hill? Or the, yeah.

Sarah:

Catholic girls.

Jacki and Ed:

Wow. That explains it.

Chris:

kind.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Jacki and Ed:

Yeah, because I didn't meet you. Where did you go there to, Chris?

Chris:

six.

Jacki and Ed:

Yeah, I feel like I didn't meet you till middle school.

Chris:

All right. I think we have told all the funny stories about our gangs of Elizabeth. Um, I've revealed too much information about my anxiety as a child. so I think, Jackie and Ed, why don't you tell us about Tanner and about Morgan and what they were like as kids and teenagers? Oh, that's

Jacki and Ed:

sense of humor. He was naturally smart. He was like, didn't study, but get 4. 0 kind of kid. and, he wasn't really in that much trouble that much. he had a close group of just a few friends. He didn't have a ton of friends. What else? he had his like own eBay business in like middle and high school, which he did really well at. And then he graduated EF. he got a 4. 05, I think when he graduated and he was accepted and started at Pitt business school in 2018.

Chris:

he's following in his uncle's footsteps.

Jacki and Ed:

Yeah, he was, he looked up to John a lot. They like would talk to each other and get ideas and, John would give him ideas. It was cool. Like we hoped that someday he would work with him or for him or something. he also excelled in swimming. He was on the swim team. He was a lifeguard for a little while. He really liked that job. what else? He was good. Big brother to Morgan. He was always like protective of her and they were really close. she was like a little mother to him. She was two years younger, but she would like, Act like his mom, but he was, it was like endearing to both of them. They were actually good about it with each other. when he got sick later, she was, it was hard for her. And she tried to do as much as she could to help him and help us. There was definitely nothing that growing up that you would think that it was a mental illness. I think that's where we ran into the problem when he came to us at around 15, stating, that he had like vague symptoms of like visual snow, something I never heard of, or like ringing in the ears. And, Not being able to concentrate. And in my head, I thought, I'm sure we just take them to the doctors and they're going to figure out what it is and, each time it was like, you're a healthy young kid, blood work and everything comes back fine. so you just. You want things to be fine. And part of you thinks possibly maybe he's really, nothing is wrong because, he's excelling at school and, you don't really know how he's actually feeling. but he knew early on at 15, that something wasn't right. Like he was searching a lot of stuff online, like these weird symptoms. And we thought maybe it was just like going, Down rabbit holes, you know how you do, like you have a headache or you have a brain tumor, that kind of thing. So not that we were blowing it off, but we were like, it's okay, Dan, you're fine. Like you're good. I think when he was 16, he came to us like one night we were watching TV or something like super upset. Like he thought he had basically had Alzheimer's. Some kind of syndrome like that because he just was used to being able to excel at school, think straight, get good grades. And then he was having so much trouble. It was like a big change for him in his mind. we ended up, neuro doctor, he had a brain MRI. He had eye tests, ear tests, blood work, more blood work. I'm trying to think, I wrote some things down. Just want to make sure. He had consults to like a couple different doctors, everything kept checking out, and we saw our PCP, everything, so we had to think what else do we do, we go back to the PCP and she's maybe he needs like ADHD testing, like maybe late onset ADH or something like that, because he did have some, Little bit of symptoms like that. And I know it can be out in different ways, but he was like always a procrastinator. And I know that was one thing, like he would do projects, school papers, everything like the night before I'm up at like midnight, like trying to do papers. So I'm thinking maybe it is something like that we're missing. So he had testing for ADHD that was negative. so she, it was like a full blown test. So she basically came up generic anxiety and depression. I feel like that's it. All they say when they don't know what else to do. he started to see a therapist and a psychiatrist, but a little bit. Unfortunately, I think, the psychiatrist that they sent us to was like more of a holistic thing, which he like bit onto, like they were, he was doing these supplements and these vitamins and diet, which I know can help, but he went off the deep end with it, basically this psychiatrist believed that Tanner was feeling the way he was. Because it started in his gut. And so everything became whole food, spending hundreds of dollars, none of this stuff was covered by insurance, which was fine. So we were doing whatever we needed to do. It just really wasn't helping. Yeah. He was taking like digestive enzymes, all of these things I'd never even heard of really. And then he started him on this thing called, AIP diet. Cause he thought it maybe it was something autoimmune and that's an autoimmune thing. What's the I stand for? I forget. Paleo diet. It was like an elimination diet. Yeah. Possibly because he's eating tomatoes that have lectin in it, that he could be feeling this way. And, that, that's probably what sent him down the rabbit hole of, extreme diets. And, thinking that he's feeling this way because of something he's eating or a household chemical. and, that was pretty much where that ended. As far as like us doing anything. And then he was at the age where he was self helping, reading on Instagram, just doing different things that at this point, he's 19 years old in college and, we're losing that connection, that control of helping him. Navigate things. So he started like on his own, even though we were close by, but at one point I was like cooking these AIP meals. He was in a dorm that year and like taking them down to him at college. But in the end, it really wasn't helping. Like he was coming home every weekend. You could tell he was depressed. There was a couple of times I took him to the doctor from school. Like I just. Was so worried about him. and then COVID hit. So basically the therapist stopped seeing him, the doctor, he couldn't see them. He couldn't go to school. He didn't do well on online school at the time. He ended up dropping out of school and. Now we're like, what do we do now? I will say the one good thing that came from COVID is Morgan had a birthday party at our house, during COVID. And that's where Tanner met his girlfriend. That was a good friend of Morgan's. That's where they met. So that was a very good thing for him and us because she was. Very good with him. And, that was one good thing. I don't know. I'm just happy. He had the experience like he loved her. Like he bought an engagement ring for her. It was in our safe. he wasn't ready to get married to her, but he wanted to someday. And I'm so happy at least got to experience that. And she's been a godsend to us too. It's just good to have her. She helped him through a lot and he helped her through a lot. She admits that too. Like she was having mental struggles herself. So it was just like a good fit for them. Yeah. She stayed with him. Probably when a lot of girls, especially young girls, her age would have bailed because they're used to being taken out to dinner and going to movies. And he was just, depressed that. and just, he really wasn't doing those things. so I guess maybe fast forward to when, like every weekend, taking him back to school on Sunday was just. Like he did not want to go. He was depressed. He just wanted to stay home, like in his room basically. And he would get us so worried. Like we were just going back and making him go there. And then it almost was a blessing a little bit that COVID happened because he didn't have to do that every weekend. Like we couldn't figure out like why you're a young kid. You're in college, go have fun. But he was not having any fun. It was like this much fun.

Chris:

And

Jacki and Ed:

So

Chris:

had gone through all the medical causes of this, right? So that's how like It's not a brain tumor. It's not a broken leg. It's not a thing that you could find on a, on an MRI or a cat scan, or it's nothing like that and then you're going to, you're getting him in therapy and you're taking him to a psychiatrist. And I, I think. Just 1 point about the psychiatrist and the therapist. it isn't a 1 size fits all. from our experience with Olivia, it and from my own experience, I went to 3 before I found a therapist that I liked and I've been to 2 different psychiatrists. Because one was like, okay, how many pills, how much prescription do you need? And I'm like, I really want you to think about what's wrong with my brain before we before you do that. and I think that's something that I think people. This is going to be terrible for me to say out loud and I might have to go lay down after. People our age tend to look at doctors more shut up Sarah. Look at doctors like, yeah, you're invincible. You know exactly what we should be doing. And of course you're the doctor and I'm going to listen to you. But I think sometimes when we're talking about mental health, that just doesn't apply. You got to

Jacki and Ed:

is one thing.

Chris:

like shoes.

Jacki and Ed:

Like looking back on it, I wish I knew more than I wish they knew more than I wish there was more education. Like even a PCP round that would know that some of these really early symptoms, cause they really didn't send us to the right Avenue. Of course you want to clear out anything medical first. So obviously there's a brain tumor that's causing something you want to get that taken care of. But if all that checks out, they should. Go a little stronger. I guess she tried by the ADHD testing, but I just feel like there were more red flags that they missed that we wish they would have caught early. And I will say I, I did appreciate the psychiatrist, not just medicating Tanner. it's okay, if this is something that can be fixed without medication, but I think it was just far past of what Tanner was actually dealing with, that we really didn't quite know about, nor did he. And, ultimately that is what sent him down the rabbit hole. And, And speaking of that, like we were butting heads at the time too, cause then he was home from school, he wasn't helping around the house. We were spending all this money on this raw diet. And paying all the bills. And it was just a little bit of a rough time at home for us. And we didn't understand at the time, like what was going on. So we were kind of like, each getting on each other's. Yeah. I was like, you're a 20 year old kid. Why can't go out and get a job? if you're not going to do college, you need to be working. That's just how it, it goes. But, He just really wasn't able to, and, we didn't know that. And then I guess, sorry, go ahead.

Chris:

that's the, that's universal, I think, looking at trying to tease apart what I need to write Olivia about and what I need to let go. Cause it's just her brain, ADHD looks like laziness a lot from the outside depression looks like laziness a lot from the outside and Olivia is pretty smart. So she, she's pretty savvy at being like, Oh, but I have a mental illness.

Jacki and Ed:

yeah.

Chris:

and then it's my job to be like, fuck you, go clean your room. let's, let's do body doubling and I will walk with you while we go and do this next task. I think a lot of parents of kids with, mental issues Struggle with that same thing like this isn't the same as going at like teenage angst and in them just rebelling this is their brains and it's

Jacki and Ed:

And it is hard to

Chris:

tease that out

Jacki and Ed:

line.

Chris:

Yeah.

Sarah:

I have a question. fuck, fuck off. I, can I mute you?

Chris:

No, you can't mute me. I can mute you if I want to

Sarah:

I want to go back. I just want to step, take a step back real quick because Ed, you had mentioned um, ringing in the ears and then something with a vision. can you tell me more about that? Is that one of the earlier things that was happening? what age was that happening? And,

Jacki and Ed:

was like the first symptoms he came with where the, like he, he's always had ringing in his ears from when he was young. he had a lot of ear infections, little, he was on a lot of antibiotics. I thought that was causing that and I was blowing it off, but it was like, If that was from it, you can't really do much to fix it to help it. But I've heard ringing in the ears is very hard to live with just in itself. but then he started complaining, this vision, he called it visual snow. He'd saw it online. It's like a static view. And I was listening to a webcast about, psychosis. And they said that is one of the earlier signs that can happen in these weird like visual fields and also ear ringing. I don't know how that happens, but it can happen in some people.

Sarah:

I was just curious because that's very, I don't know, I have a kid that complains about everything

Jacki and Ed:

Yeah, I know. It's hard.

Sarah:

that's where it becomes tough is because, if he came in here right now and said, mom, my ears are ringing, I'd be like, yeah, okay, you're fine. how do you take something that simple? And it's hard. It's hard. Again, I'll go back to what we're, we've said a thousand times on the podcast. We said it several times last week. It's so much easier if there's just a bone sticking out of your arm or out of your,

Jacki and Ed:

that's what we're looking for someday, like better tests, earlier tests, genetic testing, different scans. And they are doing research with those things, but they're just still way far behind.

Sarah:

right.

Jacki and Ed:

The diagnosis earlier would be amazing if they could do that. And then the treatment. Realm we can go into later, but that earlier and better would be amazing too.

Chris:

Yeah. I, luckily Olivia's, PCP was really good about picking up on things that I was ignoring because I'm a, I was a tiger mom for a bit, Like we would go to the pediatrician and they have a little form to fill out and she's circling all the frowny faces and then drawing arrows towards the opposite side of the paper. Like you don't have a frowny face that looks sad enough to tell you how I feel.

Jacki and Ed:

That is hard. Yeah.

Chris:

and the pediatrician's yeah, let's just talk about that a little bit. And I'm like, she's probably sad because she didn't do her homework

Jacki and Ed:

Yeah.

Chris:

I'm an idiot.

Jacki and Ed:

so easy to blame it on any of that. And I understand that. Especially when they're, living there, they're like going to school, getting good grades. So you think, if something was really 4. 0 student. and normal, whatever, Yeah,

Chris:

but thank God he was like, a little therapy doesn't hurt. It doesn't hurt

Jacki and Ed:

therapist was really good fit. It was the more the psychiatrist that wasn't, but then she just basically shut down at COVID and wouldn't see him at all. or I lied. She would see him on zoom, but he wouldn't go on zoom. So they were just, he's I don't need it anyways. I just won't go. So that probably into spring was really hard. Yeah.

Chris:

Olivia really struggled when she went away to school to find a therapist because I can't make the appointments for anymore. I can't even talk to the doctors about her anymore because it because she's 18. Yeah, they're like, are you calling to make an appointment for her? I'm like, yeah, they're like, we. She has to call us.

Jacki and Ed:

Wow.

Chris:

now she's just going to avoid that. yeah, until you can get them to take care of their stuff, all you can do is like nag the shit out of them. Did you make an appointment? Did you make an appointment? You should make an appointment.

Jacki and Ed:

love that when you do that. They

Chris:

Yeah. Yeah. that doesn't push on

Jacki and Ed:

It doesn't

Chris:

depression, anxiety, ADHD triggers for Olivia either.

Jacki and Ed:

He got to the age where he realized, wait, you mean I don't have to get the flu shot, cause that's when he was like thinking that the stuff, that was going into his body was, is what caused him to feel this way. So he quit basically even going to doctors, and didn't get flu shots or he wouldn't even take Tylenol, nothing. he actually, at one point. Blamed us for getting his tonsils removed because he thought, that we shouldn't have taken something naturally from him. and he didn't like that. We gave him antibiotics when he had strep throat like 10 times, we thought that was, Causing him trouble. He just had so many, he kept just trying to figure out why it was going on. And we were in the same boat and honestly, it was a little bit like, it was hard. It was just exhausting. We couldn't find anything wrong and none of it made sense that he was making up, but I guess, who knows,

Chris:

it, it would be, I'm really looking forward to seeing all of that research move forward and having a, the PCPs have a little bit more awareness of the fact that if I can't find anything wrong with your body, maybe it's your brain, and just have those conversations because that, that is what got me to, to understand what was wrong with Olivia because the, Pediatrician's no, it's probably real.

Jacki and Ed:

yeah, or even if they had better screening tools. it sounds like yours had good screening tools to have, even the faces, something, Yeah,

Chris:

every time we went. Yeah, I'm

Sarah:

Yeah, now Owen goes in, and they give him an iPad, and he has to, I'm not allowed to look at it. He has to fill all of that in himself, and that's what it is. It's basically the faces,

Jacki and Ed:

of it's suicide risk assessment too. And they're doing those a lot more.

Chris:

It's, it was nice. Of course, when I'm watching her fill it out, I'm like, are you sure you feel that way? you don't want to put one smiley face. I, and for me, it was a not really understanding, mental health issues and, correlating the fact that Olivia was depressed with me failing as a parent. And

Jacki and Ed:

Yes. It's a lot of guilt.

Chris:

that's

Jacki and Ed:

a lot of guilt. Like you want to help your kid. I'm a nurse. Like, how did I miss signs or other things? Like you do feel and he was blaming us for things we did for me growing up too, and we're like, Maybe we shouldn't have did that. I would just have your best interest in mind. I would never want to do anything to hurt you. One that sticks out to me is that I gave him and Morgan toaster strudels for breakfast. It was you should have never given me that. That's processed food. Yeah. Like process, that, that type of stuff. Yeah.

Chris:

but real talk, you guys, is there any better food other than the icing that comes with a toaster strudel?

Jacki and Ed:

especially when you got to do spelling words and get them out the door. Yeah,

Chris:

Man. Yeah. Absolutely. Honestly,

Jacki and Ed:

guess, after Covid stuff and then he like worked on and off at UPS then he like didn't work for a long time and we're like, you have to get a job, blah, blah blah. So my aunt worked at in furniture in like the beginning of 2022. He was started working there and he was doing a really good job, but we didn't know it was'cause he was manic at the time. Yeah. And he was on Yeah. not nothing could go wrong. Yeah. He was doing so good as a furniture mover. To take out the people's cars and, he was just not acting right that whole week. He broke up with Veda. He said they weren't on the same like wavelength and that he thought they should break up. And he wasn't sleeping well. He wasn't eating much. He was just like being very, strongly like against certain things like the electric plugs. a lot of, Veda, their relationship then was like, if they were going to get married and have kids. If they wanted their kids to be vaccinated or not, cause of COVID and whatnot, he was completely against it. She stood firmly for it. So not that they were butting heads, but it just, that's when they broke up. And, yeah, he would come home from work very, what I thought was like excited about work, but I didn't know that he was manic at the time. Seen that or heard of it and didn't really know what it was, but that's what it was. Yeah. The week after he started working there, he woke me up. It was like a Sunday morning. Ed was at work actually. And he was like freezing cold. I'm like, why are you so cold? He said, I was taking a walk. I'm like, what? You don't usually get up before 11, but he did have to work that day at noon. I think like, why are you up already? Taking a walk. And then he told me that, he had heard dark spirits telling him, To kill people and someone at work. And he's don't worry, mom. I would never do that. it was just heartbreaking. I just didn't expect it. I've heard of people having that happen. I've heard it in the textbooks. I never expected it to happen to my kid. Like it was very devastating that morning.

Chris:

Yeah,

Jacki and Ed:

didn't know what to say to him. I basically said, this is serious. Tell me what happened. He was just like toting around it a little bit. I'm like, I got to call dad to come home. I said, we should take you to be checked out. No, I don't need checked out. Don't worry. I'm okay. Like I won't do anything. I'm not listening to them. I'm like, but if you're having them, it's like something we have to do.

Sarah:

Was this at the end of the Manic episode

Jacki and Ed:

It was like, like maybe a week into the manic episode, which he was no manic. It can cause you to go into psychosis if you're like really manic and not sleep. He hadn't slept for 48 hours. Probably we didn't realize, but then afterwards we figured it out. Yeah.

Sarah:

I know myself, I probably don't understand enough about a Manic episode because I know I, I'm always like, yeah, Manic, making jokes about myself or something. There's not. I don't know. don't really know what's included or what comes from a manic episode. So now I'm learning from you guys is that he was just,

Jacki and Ed:

Yeah. Yeah. Like he could not sleep. He was just, his thoughts were like racing and he would go to tell you something. It didn't make sense. And then you would just stop and stare. Like he was trying to figure out what he had started saying to finish it, but then he starts something else that didn't make sense or he'd repeat it or repeat something we said. And it was just like scary as hell basically.

Chris:

you

Sarah:

and then the voices happened during that.

Jacki and Ed:

Yeah. That at a certain point, like it just gets so much, your brain is just going. So I guess that's when the voices come. part of that was like you could intrusive thoughts. So he's hearing people actually telling him to do things and as a parent you hear so much on the news About that type of stuff happening where people that can't fight these feelings that with the mental illnesses that go into malls and Shoot up places. So we were like We can't just let you not, we just can't let this happen where we don't either call the police or something to where, and at that point he, he just left the house, packed up and left and we called the police. He wrecked his car on the way out into the, he ran into the house. But then he kept going, he was dragging like part of his car. they found him, but he knew enough to be, not tell them what was happening. He's I just got to fight with my parents. I don't, I can't go home right now. And he's, now 22 years old. They couldn't, they told him we can't arrest you, but you can't drive this car. So he had a friend come pick him up and they were gone for hours. He wouldn't answer any of our calls, any of our texts. My dad tried, we tried, finally did answer a call from my brother, John, cause they were like really tight. They just, cause they had a lot of similar wavelength stuff. He did answer a call from him. John was home. He's lives in Minnesota now, but he was home to visit his wife's family. And thank God. Cause he met us at our house with him and we took a walk and we were trying to talk him through things. Just to have another person to help us, navigate what the heck was going on. to be honest, Tanner was such a, he could have acted on those voices that morning and I wouldn't be here right now. it's just such scariness that you have to think about of what all is happening, that you feel so bad that your kid

Chris:

To just for you guys to be in the moment and understand that, this is happening. I can't pretend that Tanner isn't having a sort of a psychotic break. I can't pretend that this isn't happening and we have to do what we can to take care of Tanner and take care of everybody else. So yeah, that was, that, that is amazing. I don't know if I could be that strong, but

Jacki and Ed:

I still cry thinking about it and sometimes it would go through my head like what could I have done different? What could we have helped better? But, in the end we were able, he didn't want to do anything that night. He did not sleep all night. that was like the third night he hadn't slept. This was like a Sunday night into Monday. He said, we called resolve crisis center. He wouldn't answer their call. They said we could bring him there. He wouldn't go. they said they could come to our house and he finally agreed to that Monday morning. So there are those resources out there. I will say they are very stretched. we told them what was happening, and they said we'll get someone out there, and it was literally eight, nine hours later. They called us a couple different times, said, you still need someone to come? We're like, yes, we do. please come. He was calm, mostly that day. It was just, we were just trying to keep him calm. but when they came, he was just not himself at all. He was totally psychotic at that point. Saying things, inappropriate things that were not himself. and they kept saying, you should go be seen. And he kept saying, no, I don't need to be seen. But he didn't tell them that he heard voices or that he would hurt anybody. So they couldn't take him or call to have him taken. He, you. He has to have those words. Like basically I'm going to hurt someone or myself. And he wouldn't say any of that. He knew not to say that. That's another thing that we learned during this is that what he was going through and what he said without a plan, they couldn't take him. If him just saying I had voices to hurt or kill somebody, doesn't mean anything unless if he had a plan to do it, which at the time was really weird to me that, even the cops knowing that he said that there was nothing they could really do because he didn't have a plan. And he said, I wouldn't listen to them, basically,

Chris:

right. but

Jacki and Ed:

it kept getting worse

Chris:

who knows this stuff?

Jacki and Ed:

Yeah, The first time this happens to anyone, I can't imagine. And then, so they were going to leave and they were giving me the information to if I needed to 302 him that night, because it seemed like he just kept getting worse and worse. And he came running out to the car and said, I'll go. I need help. She's go now, go, like literally leave. So

Chris:

Put him in the car. go. Okay, just one question. What's a, what's 302? I know, but it would be nice to have you guys just explain it.

Jacki and Ed:

to involuntary commit him to a psychiatric facility without his consent. Him doing it himself, which is a lot.

Chris:

oh sorry, go ahead, Ed, you

Jacki and Ed:

Yeah. I was just, another thing that I didn't realize is that you're, that is like a legal thing. Like Jackie was on the phone with the judge at midnight. I think, was it like three at the hospital? Cause we got him down there. We didn't think he would go in. We had never been, I work in Oakland, but I've never been in the lobby of Western psych they had several years ago. Someone come in and. Had a, like a deadly shooting in there. So they have it completely locked down. You go through a metal detector, you get rid of everything, whether you're a visitor or patient, everything goes like you walk in with yourself. That's it. I thought he was going to turn around and not go in. Cause once you go in, you're not coming back out until they assess you. but he did go in, thank God. And then we got up to the E. R. I don't know sure there's people out there haven't been in that E. R. It's scary to there's windows all around a big room and you're in the middle with the patients and the staff are on the other side of the windows basically just coming in and out as they need to, but they're mostly over there and you're over here and he was just pacing and wanting to go home and he wouldn't. Take any medicine. He wouldn't sign himself in like the doctor taught if you're in psychosis, they basically will admit you at that point. It's not a suicide risk. It's a treatment need at that point, but he should have agreed it to it getting treatment and he Could he would not sign it. so finally I had to 302 him then, and that's when I had to go in front of a judge and you still have to say the right words to the judge to get them to keep you. And I don't even remember what I said at this point, it was so hard. And I was just saying he was, I basically said, he said, he was having voices to hurt somebody. He's not himself. He said in the. Waiting room of the emergency room that he killed the one girl that was laying there sleeping like he is Spiraling so they did keep him.

Chris:

Yeah, that is that even just that piece of it to understand that when they get admitted, when they can admit themselves when to do it. when we went through this with Olivia, she was fourteen. Which, like she had just had a birthday, so she was just 14, and that's the age where they can sign for their, where they have to sign for themselves. And she was like, what if I don't want to go? I'm like, you want to go?

Jacki and Ed:

Yeah, we kept just saying let's just go get checked out. It's okay Let's get checked out. Just see what they say, but he wasn't buying it He was not buying it.

Chris:

I was like, I'm just going to sign you in because you're my kid. And the lady was like, No,

Jacki and Ed:

No,

Chris:

like, what are you talking about? what are you talking about? I won't even let her pick out what she's gonna eat for dinner.

Jacki and Ed:

right? yeah, I'm doing his laundry like

Chris:

What are you talking about?

Sarah:

his gut move, man.

Jacki and Ed:

Another thing that kind of not helped, but like the judge take it into account is that he hadn't slept or eaten really in a few days. So that is like not taking care of himself. So in a way that is hurting himself, that was really the key that got us going. Cause three days later, after the three day hold of a 302, then you have to go in front of the judge again. And the doctor goes to, we did it all online at the time. I don't know if they still are, but. We basically had to say why he was in there and if he needed to stay or if he was being held against his will and had to be sent back home. But between the doctor and me, they kept him. Yeah, the doctor pretty much stated that I need more time him because, we knew Tanner wasn't acting right, or that he had did drugs or anything, but the doctors were starting. They had no idea why he was acting that way. So they were just starting it baseline, They didn't know Tanner. So he basically said, I need more time with him to, figure out what's going on. There was actually a time that his, what was mercury level was high because he was eating a lot of raw fish on the raw diet. So they thought possibly it could have been something with the mercury that was asking him to cause that way.

Chris:

Oh,

Jacki and Ed:

They had I forget the doctor, what it is that deals with the poisoning. Sorry, I know there's a name for them, but he basically said, Asian people that eat raw fish all the time have higher mercury levels than this without having psychosis. So that was ruled out, but they also had to drug test him, to make sure that he wasn't, On drugs at the time causing this, because that can cause it to, Oh, that was negative, but they do have to go through each step. They, different like labs can cause different things like your thyroid level out of whack. I didn't know that could make you seem like you have something else going on mentally, when it's really your thyroid just needs adjusted or something like that.

Chris:

Yeah, that, that whole, the whole intake process is, is something that you can't begin to appreciate until you've gone through it. And you're, if you're like 99 percent of Parents out there. You've never done this before this. This has never even been in your realm of understanding I feel like you know having been a big sister to Sarah Like I had if you would have asked me at the beginning of it. I would have been like, oh, yeah I know. I'm like an ally. I know shit about mental health like I'm on it But even that I was like what is happening and Western Psych has like excellent care, excellent physicians, but it is a freaking scary place.

Jacki and Ed:

Yes. Yeah, I'm happy that he was there. The doctor and the social worker on his inpatient floor were amazing. They were so good. The doctor was amazing. They talked to us as many times as we wanted to. We had a couple meetings. They emailed, called us. And once he, that's another thing if you're, Adult child is in Western psych. They have to give consent that anyone can give you information or even say that you're there. So we left at four in the morning at the ER and he hadn't had a bed yet. So we were, we left and came back. He's still in the ER. Like in some other room, like sleeping on this cot. And, then we went to eat dinner and we came back and we're like, Oh, Tanner, they're like, Oh, we can't tell you where he is because he didn't sign consent yet. We're like, literally we were just here an hour ago. Where could he have gone in an hour?

Chris:

You, you see me. I was just there.

Jacki and Ed:

he was in psychosis, so he signing a consent was like not going to happen. Yeah. Obviously we wanted to know what was going on with him and we couldn't, we didn't know. But they did finally let us go up and see him for a minute. He was completely, they finally Oh, we should back up a tiny bit since he wasn't taking any meds at all. They were trying to give him like, Howdell and Ativan in the ER just to calm his thoughts down and get him to sleep. He just needed to sleep some. He was like fighting tooth and nail to take that. We got in the ER at nine. I think you finally took it at three or something. You finally let the nurse give it to him. And it's because, the, they only let one person up at there at a time with a patient, but since he cleared the ER out and was just him left, they let me come up and we're just like, take it for us, please. Just. We need you to sleep. You want you to feel better. I'm like, can you just take it for dad? So he finally did. And then he was just sleeping for 24 hours. So when we got up to the room where he was just conked out sleeping. So we just saw him for a minute that went back home. yeah, he went, he was there for a month of just trial and error type medicine, starting a medicine, it not working. And, it was a long process of him just being in there to figure out not only when we met with his doctor and his doctor basically said it could be up to six months before we have a diagnosis, just because of the medications and schizophrenia and bipolar kind of overlap a lot overlap.

Chris:

alike.

Jacki and Ed:

And he said they don't have clear testing to see which it is that only can see what meds work better than others. And lithium seemed to work best for him, which is a mood stabilizer. So that's why they were going on a bipolar route for him. Yeah, so he was sent home kind of a diagnosis of bipolar being on a lithium and the antipsychotic. But then he was doing okay. enough to where they weaned him off of the anti psychotic and he was just on the lithium. It had a lot of side effects too. The anti psychotics had way more side effects than the lithium seemed to be pretty good. They just make you feel like, disassociated, like you're just almost like you're not where you are. And then like weight gain. yeah, I think it more for him, it was just cognitively. He knew he wasn't the Tanner that he cognitively. Could be in that he was. And so he basically went off of that and, he was doing okay for a while, six months after that, he started working at FedEx as a driver. he had a lithium needs to be at a certain level in your system. Oh, that was perfect. Yeah. I should also point out that how we mentioned that we were butting heads so much in his like, 20s and because we couldn't understand why once he was diagnosed is bipolar. Our relationship as a family changed completely. He was a child that, he would now appreciate things and we would go together. Yeah. He started eating food. We would go out to eat together, which we never did before.

Chris:

the same thing. I think part of the struggle of existing in a family where somebody has mental health issues. Undiagnosed mental health issues is you are trying to put them that the context is all wrong. Like me trying to look at Olivia in the context of somebody who has a normal ass brain and me being like, what? This kid is so goddamn lazy. I can't even. and then once she's released, it for us, there was a period of having to go over relationships because, our situation was a little different. first, she's 14, so we have to

Jacki and Ed:

Not as mature.

Chris:

we have to learn how to parent and when Olivia attempted to attempted suicide, she left us notes that were. This is all your fault. Everything that's happened is because you are a shitty parent. You never loved me. And, as parents and as a family, we had to get over that.

Jacki and Ed:

Yeah. It's very hard to

Chris:

once we worked through those issues, the three of us, and even now to this, to today, like we have such a different appreciation for each other, where we are, if that makes sense, like it's, Olivia acts the way she does sometimes because she's a teenager and a teenager and other times because she's dealing with things that other teenagers are not. it gave us a sort of a level to expect and the same for her. once we understood, we were able to, we were able to. provide a little bit more support where we hadn't been able to do that before. if you're asking me spending time in, in Western psych was probably 1 of the best things that happened in our relationship and our ability to function as a family. yeah, getting there and doing all that is scary. And I have giant goosebumps thinking about, the tear or the terror of all of it. But, Getting past it and being able to appreciate each other for who you are is just an amazing gift,

Jacki and Ed:

Yeah. Yeah, he definitely got more appreciative to I don't know if it's because his mood was more stable. But like we he started in outpatient clinic called step it's for early psychosis patients like their first episode basically. And he had a lot of appointments there and we you know, obviously, we're going to take you to your appointments. He couldn't drive right away and he was just so appreciative of all of that. And it was like, that's that mutual, like appreciation for what each other does is where we wanted it to be before, when we were just like, fighting about everything instead. And I think for him finally, after years of thinking, it was checking labels that's why, he finally had a diagnosis. It's just unfortunate that his. Sickness became worse. and that's what got him a diagnosis because he went into psychosis and, he just had a very severe form of it too. And, we started to say he was working like six months later, he was going to this step clinic. He had an awesome therapist there. They like. Hit it off big time. They were, he was perfect. that therapist left like in May of the next year, he didn't have another therapist for a while because they were short staffed and they said he was like their most stable patient at the time. he started going manic again, we were telling them about the red flags we were having, but they're like, no, it's okay. and then they wanted him to have a lithium level, but he wouldn't, he kept like having excuses why he couldn't go get a drawn. And he started Ubering at night after his FedEx shifts. So he would get leave for work for 12 and get home at two in the morning. that messed his sleep up. It messed his med level up. He was missing doses. And then he basically got manic again. it had been, like, over since the first time, so I think he thought he was in the clear. they say that's usually when you relapse within the first year, so it was a little bit after that, maybe like 14 months. And that just, hit him hard because this was happening again and he thought he was over it and it would never happen again. And this time, like at home, it was start, he must've been, he didn't tell us he was starting here voices again, but he was like, I can't be around scissors. I might hurt somebody. I don't want to hurt you. so we knew like something was happening. He knew he was going into psychosis and he didn't really have control of himself when he was going in. So he pretty much. Told us he needed to go back into Western psych. So like we were just talking about how raw it is there. he knew he needed to go back in there because he was going into psychosis again. so that was a year, pretty much a year, like 4th of July last year. At this time, He was in Western psych for his second psychotic break. and we thought, yeah, you just go in for a couple of days, get your medication, tweaked, but he ended up being in, I think, like almost a month. Yeah. They switched his antipsychotic to a different one and. It just, it was way worse than the first one. He had horrible side effects. Like he could not come back. It was just horrible. Anxiety, horrible depression. He couldn't drive. He couldn't work. He couldn't do anything when he got out there and. He was tired. It was a lot. He was trying. He was still going to all of his appointments. He was still taking the meds they told him to. He was talking to the pharmacist there because it just, things just were not right. They were way worse than even before and they should be better. And I think he got COVID. August, we were supposed to go on a cruise with my parents. He got COVID. I got COVID, Veda got COVID. So it actually was a good thing because then we didn't have to go on a cruise. So

Sarah:

You didn't have to go

Jacki and Ed:

out at home. Yeah. And we tried to do stuff together. We were taking walks because that seemed to help him. I don't know. So what else to say about that? But yeah,

Chris:

the second time has to be so much worse because you think you've done what you needed to do. And Sarah, I know you and I had a phone conversation while I was driving down the New Jersey turnpike, I believe. when you hit the skids, the, for the 15th time, and you were like, this isn't, Easier this is so much worse and I don't I've done everything. I don't want to adjust my meds I don't want to talk about this anymore. I am Tired of trying to fight. I am tired. not even tired. I think you described it. Like I am weary to the bottom of my soul. I just don't want this anymore. And you were like, how many times? and I think you, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but, cause you can certainly talk for yourself. I just really enjoy doing it. that, how many times, like you're looking to the future and you're like, how many. More times and how much worse is this going to get? How many more times am I going to have to sit here at the lowest point and try to claw my way back up in, in what's the, what's the benefit of that at some point

Sarah:

it over and over again? And now I know that I'm going to have to do it over again. And

Chris:

it's gotta be so hard. And that's gotta be so hard to watch somebody else do that.

Jacki and Ed:

And then, like, how do you find out what helps the best to get you out of that? How can others help you? How can your family members help you? What can we do? what, try to do anything we can. And it's, hard to say sometimes, what is that magic? thing.

Chris:

And when you said that, I'm like, you have to do it every time. I never want you to not do it.

Jacki and Ed:

Yeah, I just take one minute at a time, and just keep breathing and keep going.

Chris:

The,

Sarah:

yeah. And that's the thing. I don't think there's anything specific to be said. and what sucks even more is, like I would love. In my case, which is not nearly as severe as what Tanner was going through. but just in my case, I know, I would love to be able to tell other people what to do to help me, but I don't even

Jacki and Ed:

That same thing, like a lot of people have told us like, to help other parents in this situation. And I want to know what to tell them. I don't know what to tell them. I don't know, We try to do everything that they said, like literally the doctor at Western Psych in the adult, it's an adult floor. He's they don't have as much family support as I've seen you guys have. My dad's there. Oh, we're there. Morgan's there. Veda's there. Every day, every visiting hour. And they said that's one of the most important things, but it, I don't know what else, because then there's had to be more we could do and I don't know what it is. Yeah.

Chris:

Yeah. I think at some point, and I know we've, you guys listened to the episode where we talked about this, where it's just too much. Too much. And the sad part is when you have a, when you have a terminal illness, everybody knows you have a terminal illness. Like, when it's medical, you can look at, you can look at lab levels and you can look at prognosis and Jackie, being in the profession when the time is close. Everybody knows when, but when it's mental, there's just, there, there's nothing that, that, that person that you love is doing or saying, you can't give them a blood test and be like, Oh, it's real bad for you. And I can see where you might be considering, not doing this

Jacki and Ed:

Being done with

Chris:

you, yeah, you don't have that.

Jacki and Ed:

I wonder if it'll ever get to that point.

Chris:

it would be awesome if It, did.

Jacki and Ed:

Yeah.

Sarah:

it would be great. And people don't understand that there's actually, there's a physical pain. There's a, you are, there are physical things that go on with your body throughout this. It's not. It's not

Jacki and Ed:

Oh, I've seen your head. Yeah.

Sarah:

yeah, not just in my head, which is one of my favorite things. It's just in your head. Just be happy.

Jacki and Ed:

No, you can't.

Sarah:

it's, yeah, it's,

Jacki and Ed:

And people like us that never had that happen to us. of course, I've been in extreme sadness, sorrow ever since all of this has been happening. It's still not the same as someone having clinical depression or a bipolar that's basically has the clinical depression plus mania and psychosis on top of it. We don't know what that feels like. We can only imagine And I'm sure our imagining is nowhere close to how bad it is. Yeah, I think he didn't let on as much as actually that he had going on. And a lot of that was the intrusive thoughts that, you're, he's actually hearing. It's not like you think you're hearing them. You're actually hearing these voices. and they're not saying nice things to you either. they're just constant and,

Sarah:

And again, for people who don't experience that's hard. Like how do you wrap your head around that

Jacki and Ed:

yeah, how do you help them through that?

Sarah:

experienced, right? That's because for us, I'm going to venture a guess here for all of all four of us. That's unbelievable. It's what, how does that even happen? how you can't wrap your head around it. So it makes it even harder to be able to do something. and it just leaves you in a helpless

Chris:

yeah.

Sarah:

situation. Yeah.

Chris:

stuff that works one time isn't going to work the next time. having conversations with Sarah where I'm like, get the fuck up and do what you need to do isn't going to work all the time.

Jacki and Ed:

When you're the last time he was in, when you would visit him and you're just visiting a different person, when he was in. That psychosis, he would just look at you like he didn't know you. And it was sometimes scary because he, just wasn't himself and the things he was saying. And, you just have to leave and you get in the elevator and cry. And then you go back the next day, just hoping he's going to have a better day come out of it. And, some days were better. Some days we could, have a nice visit while he ate dinner and he was like, Oh, this food is so good. And you could at least like talk to him, maybe joke. He has, he was always like a cute jokester. my dad would sit there and color pictures with him. they're not even allowed to have pencils or pens. Like they have crayons. some days were good. Some days were really bad. And it's just you didn't know what you were walking into each day. And that's what made it really hard.

Chris:

yeah, 100%. 100%. yeah, do you guys want to talk about Tanner's last day? Or we can skip right to how we can help, how we can help.

Jacki and Ed:

I can talk about it. So because we missed the cruise, we had planned on, and, I, I had the feeling that Tanner was still like not able to go on a plane. So like we said, it worked out that he got COVID and it wasn't like, Hey, you're preventing the family from going on this cruise. Because you're too anxious for a plane. we think it worked out. So we ended up planning a vacation where we could drive to, so we had a vacation planned and, I had come home from work on that Thursday before the weekend that we were leaving, starting my vacation. And he met me in the garage where our safe is. And he had asked me if I had changed the code to the safe. And I said, yeah, you actually had me do it when you were in psychosis. He had me take his gun and lock it in the safe because he knew it wasn't safe for him. So he said he wanted to look at his coins. He collected rare coins and I really didn't think anything of it. So he got the coins out and, We looked at him at the table when we, him and I watched a movie, Jackie got home from work. We ate dinner here. We've made like a grocery list for vacation. We took a walk. We took a walk on the trail. Yeah. beta had been staying with us since he was home from the hospital, but she had, she was doing her yoga certifications. So she left. That Thursday to go, she was going away for a retreat for that, for the weekend. And that was the first time she wasn't staying at our house that night, Thursday night. we asked him if he wanted to go see her. She was going on vacation with us. We were leaving Monday, but, he said, no, I'm good. I'll just stay here. And she would always make sure he took his meds. she wasn't there. So I'm like, you're going to take your meds. He said, yeah. So we went to bed at 10 30. No, he was having this, Was it I twitching from things like one of those side effects? What are they called? Oh my gosh. They're like ticking side effects from some mental health medications. He was singing. It was that he said it was hard to sleep because when he would shut his eyes, they would twitch. so he was, he might sleep on the chair. That's what he said. Down in the living room and our bedrooms are upstairs. he said, don't worry if you hear me going downstairs, I might be sleeping on the chair cause I, it feels a little easier to sleep that way. We're like, okay, yeah. We. Thought that was like a normal response. Yeah, I'm sorry you have that twitching, but if that helps anyways, so we all went to bed at 10 30 and I got up at seven to take the dog out and his car wasn't there, he hadn't been driving, so that was definitely. A worrisome thing that his car wasn't there and I was like caught off guard. I called his girlfriend thinking he went there to her house because he has done that before, like in the middle of the night, like you wanted to see her.

Chris:

Yeah.

Jacki and Ed:

she didn't answer the phone and it was early, like they sleep in, they don't get up that early. And, so I called her mom. And she answered and I said, is Tanner's car there? Like I can't, he's not in his room and his car's not here. And she said, no. So I was at the same time, like running up and Tanner's car's gone and he's not at Veda's. and I went into the bathroom and, Ed came right up. Where are you? Where are you? I'm like, I'm in the bathroom. He's his gun is missing. I'm like, what? what do you mean? And he said, it's not in the safe. It's just something that like I started putting things together that it was weird that. His car wasn't there and that he had me open the safe and, so that was the first thing I checked. Yeah, it was so like nonchalant that Ed didn't even tell me he opened the safe or they looked at the coins earlier. It was just like an everyday thing. Like he did like to look at his coins and

Chris:

Right. and

Jacki and Ed:

so we.

Chris:

go

Jacki and Ed:

9 1 1, the police came, and they were very good, actually, they, we told him what was happening, that he might, we didn't think he would hurt anybody, but that he might hurt himself. they took immediate, missing persons report, they put out his license plate. I looked on find your iPhone and his last location was down by the trail where we walk, literally walked on the trail every night that we could have three of us or four of us. Sometimes my dad, sometimes Morgan, whoever it was home, we walked in the show. I said, that's the only other place I can think of that. He went, that wasn't, that location was from like the night before 1130 at night when we had gone to bed at 1030. but it didn't say which entrance and we've gone on the trail, different entrances. So we started at one entrance and I guess they started at another and he wasn't at the one we went to. So we started towards the other one. We saw like a police car speeding that way. So we thought they may have found his car and we got there and his car was there at the trail, like parking lot. they had it roped off and we were really worried that he would be in there, but he wasn't. so that started like a search party and. That was maybe eight o'clock in the morning at that point. there was several police, there was search dogs there. They had drone teams. they wouldn't let us go search for him on the trail. they, yeah, they said you stay here. Cause the bloodhounds will confuse their scent. so they basically had us. Away from everything, they did a couple different times bring, we went home to get a piece of clothing of his, but it seemed three or four different times. Something like we did it wrong. We did it wrong. You're not supposed to put it in a bag. No one told us. And then finally, like the eventually they, they have bloodhound. Master got, the officer and his dog went to, put gloves on, and that type of thing. And, by this time, the township police had put out on their page that the trail was shut down due to an active incident. And so Jackie shared that. Friends and family started coming to the trailhead, to be there for us and for Tanner. And, they found him like maybe 11, 1130. They, they had been coming back and forth. Like we're still trying. We're still searching. one of the dogs did find him, maybe almost a mile down the trail. Yeah, they, they had drones. And, I think Jackie's dad said he saw. they called the drones down and when I saw the two officers walking towards us, I just, I knew it's the worst moment when they tell you, you knew, but you didn't hear it. So I hear them telling us that all the time and, Morgan was there, Veda felt, she was just apologizing. like, I should have been there and Richard, it was just, so yeah, that's,

Chris:

That's,

Sarah:

Nothing can possibly prepare you for

Jacki and Ed:

no,

Sarah:

you knew it doesn't that I,

Jacki and Ed:

no, not at that point. Yeah. I knew just. The fact that he, had taken the gun and I knew he was struggling. And, you in the back at way back of your head, you're putting the pieces together, but at the same time, you're not really wanting to put those together. you're wanting to see them either come out of the trail with him or, possibly he just like. went down. I, one of them is going on there and sit on a bench and think things through. that didn't happen. So,

Chris:

you go ahead, sir. I talk a lot.

Sarah:

I was just going to say, I really, we're not done yet. We have some more things that we want to talk to you guys about, but, I appreciate you guys so much for coming on and doing this with us. especially considering we, we had a. Pretty much very similar talk just a week ago. I know it can't possibly be easy to continue to talk about it, especially when you're sharing these details. think you guys a ton for being willing to do this. I think what we need to do is parents. To listen to things, because I think part, nobody expects this to happen and we all need to be listening to it. We all need to be hearing it. so that's my hope that we will get to share your story. and then it makes a difference and that we as parents, we'll be able to advocate a little bit harder, maybe, at those early stages. And, of course, We're going to get into talking about what you guys have done, since September, what, with March 4th and everything. and that's really what we want to get out there, but I just wanted to thank you guys, for being willing to do this,

Chris:

Yeah,

Jacki and Ed:

yeah, thanks for having us. I just hope we have told this story a couple of times now. So it does make it a little bit easier and it does make it easier that he didn't die in vain. if there's anything we can do, yeah. Or help someone else from this really hard, difficult thing. We want to do it. I don't know what we can do, but if this helps anybody, then we'll do it.

Sarah:

You're doing it. Yeah, I think you're doing it. just this right here is doing it. I know I've mentioned on, Episodes that you guys amazed me. and one of the first things that amazed me was when I read Tanner's story and finding out that it wasn't even a year ago and everything that you guys have done since. And a lot of people, would have just crumbled. And instead of crumbling, you guys are standing up and doing

Jacki and Ed:

We do crumble sometimes. But,

Sarah:

I can't imagine. Yeah, you are absolutely allowed to crumble. And I think that we would all everybody in your lives would be worried. If you did a crumble a little bit,

Jacki and Ed:

but Tanner knew how we are and that we like to keep doing things. And it maybe got on his nerves some, but he always appreciated it. So if we could do something that helps somebody else. in his name, I think you would appreciate it.

Sarah:

for sure. Absolutely. Sis. I'm sorry. What were you going to say when

Chris:

I forget.

Sarah:

Okay.

Chris:

I have a, I have attention deficit problems. I forgot already. so I'll pretend like I didn't say anything and just feed off of you. Yeah, you guys. Thank you. Thank you so much. I know that it just talking about this stuff has been so helpful for me because even though it's not even similar, having gone through

Jacki and Ed:

No, it is similar. It's hard. It's so hard.

Chris:

Like it, it has helped me to understand that all of the things that I was feeling weren't just because I'm a spastic moron. It's just how you feel when you're, when your kid goes through this stuff and being able to hear the story and being able to talk about what happened with me and Olivia makes it so much better for me. So if we can help get that message out to, just one other person, I've. I love it. And Oh, this is what I was going to say. I remember now.

Sarah:

Ding, ding! I'll just keep, I'll just keep yammering away until it comes to me. This is it. This

Chris:

shut up. I made a career doing that. Jackie, you made a Facebook post and I absolutely found a lot of inspiration in the fact that you guys didn't shy away from sharing this from the very beginning when that emotion had to be so raw and so tough that it, there. You made a Facebook post about how you were getting a Tanner's clothes ready and the courage of being able to do that. And having the perspective that you had about Tanner's death. it really touched a nerve again, having. had the thought and the fear of having to go through the same thing myself, whether it's with Sarah or whether it's with Olivia and having that kind of perspective really helped me understand what, not just what I was going through, you were going through, but what Sarah and Olivia go through when they're feeling really

Jacki and Ed:

Really good.

Chris:

And It was lovely. And I know it had to be hard and terrible

Jacki and Ed:

Yeah. It's just not fair. Like I should have been pressing his suit for his wedding

Chris:

right.

Jacki and Ed:

and like he had such awesome potential and it wasn't able to be brought out. Like I wasn't able to see what happened later with him. He wasn't able to be with us to make more memories. But also he's not suffering anymore. I don't want him to suffer at all. And that was hard. So hard to see your kids suffer. Like we, we've said, especially Ed was so good about I wish I could take your pain away. Cause it is physically painful. And if it was painful for us to see him like every day, I was like, what can I do? Yeah. But the same thing I was telling him not to do, I was finding myself Googling, like I just wanted to find something Be like, Hey, this is going to help you. This is it. This is, here's a study and wherever that we could take you to that, it's going to flip that switch and you're no longer going to have this.

Chris:

Yeah. and then moving on from that, just being able to share things like that immediately. how did you guys get from there to March 4th? how did you sit down, process your emotions and immediately pivot from what had to be like a lot of. Grief, sorrow, self,

Jacki and Ed:

there's been so many people before me that had tragedy happen and do good things. They've had scholarships for their, in their kid's name or other. We have another friend that has a nonprofit, which we should give them a shout out. Michael's amazing.

Chris:

Yeah.

Jacki and Ed:

and I wanted, like I said before, just not have him die in vain. I wanted something good to come from. Something like so hard. I wanted something when I didn't know what, like a scholarship really wasn't like working for me with that. And when he was in the hospital the second time, you're not allowed to wear shoes with shoestrings. And we noticed a lot of people in the, waiting room, visiting room, whatever, they didn't have shoes. Cause they didn't have, or they had them without the strings and they're walking around with them like that. but Tanner had Crocs and he was allowed to wear them. He wore them things everywhere. no lie. Like They were wet, they were muddy, they were on the trail, they were in the hospital. Like everywhere, that's where he wore, what he wore. I guess they were just so comfortable, I don't know. so one day I was sitting on the shuttle to go into work. And there was a nurse next to me that had Crocs on her feet. She was wearing Crocs even though we're really not supposed to. But anyway, we won't go there. you can cut that out. I'm like, and I should back step. So since people didn't have shoes, really, there was a, another gentleman, they would pace the halls a lot. Like it's. It seemed to calm them, especially the psychosis floor. They were just walking the halls. So they're walking and they're there a month, two months, sometimes four months, wearing either slipper socks or shoes without laces in them, like clunking around. and the one gentleman that he was like friends with from walking so much asked, Like desk, if they had any shoes in there, lost and found. And they did have a few pairs, but none fit him. And, Tanner asked him what size he wore. And it was the same size as Tanner wore. Of course, we had an extra pair there for the shower or whatever. And he gave him those shoes and we're like, what we can, it seems little like to give us to do a crock drive, but that's where it started. let's maybe do a crock drive to give these. Patient some shoes and then we were talking about the sweatshirts too, because it's drafty and they're walking in there and they're going to activities and stuff and they have a hospital gown on. so we thought of the crew neck sweatshirts too, because they're not a lot of zippers, strings or hoods. so that's where it like started with that. that's what we're first project is, but there are other things down the line that we would like to do as well. It's just that personal connection to Western site that where he was. and that, Chris, that it's kind of raw, I feel like a lot of the patients that don't have visitors or someone to bring them shoes. there's a lot like that. we saw some getting discharged several while we were waiting in the waiting room or whatever to go visit that we're leaving the hospital by Uber. they had no one there to pick them up. They're not going to have anyone there to bring them shoes or shirts.

Chris:

Right.

Jacki and Ed:

And it's not the most important thing that they need, but maybe it would help them feel like someone cared about them and brought them something to wear so that they could be comfortable.

Sarah:

It means a lot. Yeah, it definitely means a lot.

Chris:

for Olivia, it, Olivia grew up pretty sheltered, right? And we live in a pretty homeogenous community, right? There's not a lot of diversity around

Sarah:

That was a big word.

Chris:

it up, dude. having her in Western Psych and seeing people with different backgrounds, it's raw. it's scary. And Olivia didn't have enough underwear when we took her there. And I think I might have shared this with you guys. I had no idea how to get her underwear. And it's such a

Sarah:

Another reason you shouldn't wear underwear. Just stop

Chris:

Listen, everybody should wear underwear. You're super gross. We

Sarah:

go

Jacki and Ed:

Crocs, crewnecks and underwear. That's the next one, huh?

Chris:

got the little March 4th logo on them, like the days of the

Jacki and Ed:

Underwear. Yeah. There you go. we took him a duffel bag. They wouldn't let him have the duffel bag because it had a zipper, so they had to put it aside. We take the stuff out that they can have, put them in like a paper bag, take him to the room. But that takes four days.

Chris:

right, by the time the underwear got from Kohl's. Like in the Coles bag with the receipt package all closed by the time it got to Western psych through all of the security screening. They're taking the poor girls underpants through. I'm not sure. By the time they do all of that. And she was like, this is great. I'm coming home tomorrow

Jacki and Ed:

Yeah. Yeah.

Chris:

and it. when I found out what you guys were doing, the Crocs and the sweatshirts, I called her and told her, and Olivia doesn't, Olivia doesn't tend to get super emotional about this part of her life, but, I could hear her on the phone getting emotional about it.

Jacki and Ed:

I hope it helps. She experienced it from the inside. like knowing that, you grow up pretty quick in there. Yeah. It's very eyeopening. kids. Yeah,

Chris:

And

Jacki and Ed:

ask. like asking where his clothes and they're like, Oh, it still has to go through this person. We're like, but he has no clothes to wear. can you do it now? No. Okay.

Sarah:

So we should say, because I'm not sure, we keep mentioning March 4th, but I don't think we really gave

Chris:

Oh, no, we did it. Yeah.

Sarah:

of what March 4th is. So March 4th is a nonprofit organization that you guys have founded. I'll let you guys take over and give us information about March 4th and we'll include links and whatever else we need to in show

Jacki and Ed:

Okay. Yeah. We were trying to figure out the name, what name to make. We wanted to do this Crocs thing first. And I worked through like the hospital and everything. And They actually have a non profit through Western Psych that's called Ment, wait, Making Minds Matter. And they said we could like, join in on theirs, or make our own. And we were like back and forth on what to do, but basically if we joined on theirs, we would just make it like a one time thing. But we wanted to try to do more and sustain it more. So we decided to open our own, not knowing One thing of how to open a nonprofit. It is a lot more steps than you think. And it took months to get open and approved and everything. So we finally did, but we were before that we had to think of a name that wasn't MPA. Like you can't have the same name as someone else's business. And we were, there was like eight of us trying to figure out names and we're like back and forth on a bunch. but we all agreed on March 4th is Tanner's birthday. And we are like mission statement. I don't have a word for it, but basically. Helping people move forward in difficult times, and our purpose is to provide needed items or support like things for mental health patients and their families to help them get through all of this. like I would like to even a future, do some kind of family liaison, like peer to peer. To help them navigate this whole system, because that was like one of the biggest, hardest things to figure out. we're like, what the hell is going on? We walk in here, we don't know what to do. And if they had like a peer to peer family liaison, not just a patient liaison, I think that would help other parents get through this whole process. First time parents. Yeah. Especially first time. And we were better the second time. Yeah. Like where's the cafeteria is I didn't even know where to call, to find out how he was doing in the morning or that the social worker needs to call you. I didn't know they would take our keys and our phone and okay, here, I don't know. Like what?

Chris:

nothing when you, when like Olivia and I, when this happened, Olivia and I went to Washington hospital, it, because it's a medical emergency, I got to take you to the emergency room. that's the best one. So yeah. And then they were like, okay, now we have to find a place to put her. And it took them, we got it, we got to Washington hospital at two o'clock on the morning, two o'clock in the morning on Friday. And David and I finally made it back home. Four o'clock in the morning on

Jacki and Ed:

Like Sunday. Oh

Chris:

Yeah. Or Sunday, like I Olivia and I spent a whole 18 hours just staring at each other,

Jacki and Ed:

Wow.

Chris:

and they took her phone. They took my phone. Like when you're in the little holding tank before they find you someplace, like they, they give you food, but it's all everything is sealed. You can't go anywhere. You can't do anything. I had to leave the door open when I went to the bathroom. Like you're. I can't imagine doing that in Western Psyche. At least I was in Washington Hospital and they had put

Jacki and Ed:

very similar. It was very similar. and we do, we might look at other, there's an other psychiatric units, like maybe I, I don't know if Washington has one, but like Jefferson has one, like we are thinking about other places too. Cause depending on what, how things go with everything. like outpatient clinic was really great. And I don't know if they could use some sort of patient help, like navigating systems and like life in general, after they're out of the hospital, you

Chris:

yeah, there's so many ways. Sorry, go ahead, sir.

Sarah:

I know I was just going to ask. So as of now, you guys do have a Facebook page. so we'll share that, get people to start following that. what else can we do to help? Are we able to, just make a straight donation to March 4th or does it have to be part of a campaign, like with a Crocs and crew necks or

Jacki and Ed:

can make a straight donation, we do have a Venmo and a PayPal and, or take checks. We're also going to have, hopefully on Thursday, I'll have pictures of the shirts. We're going to have a shirt fundraiser for anyone that wants to purchase a shirt. We'll have t shirts and crew necks. the one, the crew necks are going to be the same as we're giving the patients. And then we also have t shirts. as soon as I get some good pictures of them we're going to make a, fundraiser for those. So that would help go towards the patient's shirts too.

Sarah:

All right, I'll take three of everything you're

Jacki and Ed:

Okay. I should stop her out. There's a place in Swiss Alpine Village in Elizabeth called Made with Patients. Her name is Patients and she is helping us with the shirts.

Chris:

Nice.

Jacki and Ed:

Yeah.

Sarah:

All right. you can

Chris:

I made the

Sarah:

that up and adding some links for that will definitely. And then did you catch the name of their friends nonprofit that we can link in there as

Jacki and Ed:

It's called Michael's Ovation and they have a Facebook page too. They're having a golf outing, I think pretty soon August for his.

Sarah:

Okay.

Jacki and Ed:

And they're, Michael was 14, I believe. so their nonprofit is, they provide books, scholarships. There was like a, a place that Michael liked to go to ride his bike that they would pay for admissions. I think it's since closed, but, they're doing a lot of good things there too, with, They did something with the Humane Society because I guess he really liked animals. he passed away from suicide four years ago. he was only 14. so they've done a lot of good. through them as well. the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention is also another good place. If people are looking to, they do a lot of research and help with mental health, as suicide prevention research, bipolar disease is the most, highest level of suicide risk for any mental illness. I forget what those statistics were. It was like 10 to 30 times more. Suicide risk for bipolar patients in the general population. So there's still a lot of work to be done with that. So they are doing a lot of work with that. They have a several walks. There's one coming up in Pittsburgh through the AFSP. That's not March 4th related, but it's still a good cause that we're going to walk in. Tanner walked with us last year's, Pittsburgh walk, because Ed's cousin passed away from suicide while he was in the hospital in July. So Tanner walked with us. Six days before he died, but, it's just, it's all awareness. It all helps Sigma and research too. So they're also a good place.

Sarah:

for sure.

Chris:

that is amazing. And,

Sarah:

sis, I think that, we should get some merch going and,

Chris:

oh my gosh.

Sarah:

some,

Jacki and Ed:

you should.

Sarah:

do some

Chris:

Crossover merch.

Sarah:

you

Jacki and Ed:

Yeah. If you have mental, I love your logo. So yeah, we'll get some of yours too. So our logo, I don't know if you can tell it's a fox. Can you see it?

Chris:

Yeah, we can see it.

Jacki and Ed:

It's a fox. With, angel wings and a halo. The last night that we took our walk with Tanner, before he left, we saw a Fox on the trail, wasn't skittish. It just stayed there and we saw it. each time we passed by and then we had three different times that weekend after he passed away, we saw like foxes in the cul de sac and foxes around town, which we had never seen before. Yeah. So that just

Chris:

and Elizabeth? Yep.

Jacki and Ed:

Yes. Yeah.

Chris:

that weren't making pizza?

Jacki and Ed:

Yeah, So that's why we did the Fox. my brother and sister in law came and stayed at a hotel in West Mifflin for the funeral. And there was an origami Fox statue like in the lobby. And so that was what it was supposed to be an origami Fox. We got a little less origami looking as we went. But that's basically what Like inspiration for it was

Sarah:

Oh, wow.

Chris:

I love that. I love that. And I am going to speak for all of the funny boners. if there is ever anything that we can volunteer for, if we can go to a walk, if we can,

Sarah:

love

Jacki and Ed:

okay.

Chris:

1 of us loves walking. I don't like it very much. if there's if there are burritos, we can buy if there are ever anything that we can do to help you guys. I'm sure we could do that. We can put the call out and Jackie, the last thing I wanted to mention was, if a need, if something that you think somebody that listens to this podcast, the 4 of us might have some expertise in that, that you don't have, they can help you with anything that March 4th is working on. Let me know. And we can even throw something up on, on LinkedIn, or we can use our professional networks to, to see if we can, to see if we can find what you need.

Jacki and Ed:

Okay. Awesome. We're still working on the crux purchasing them. We got the shirts taken care of, and there's a girl from DSW that I have to get to next because the hospital administration just gave me the numbers to how many to order of each size. So I need to go back into her. If for some reason that falls through, we might need someone Crocs that would give us a discount because Crocs, to be honest, the company Crocs, I've emailed, called and sent them a mailing letter and no response at all. So I got to get them a different way.

Chris:

Fabulous and I went to Bethany college in West Virginia, and they've got a pretty strong group too. So I would be more than happy to throw it out to 1 of those nerds that were nerdier than me, they could help out to

Jacki and Ed:

possible. Wow.

Chris:

I you would be surprised. I was like, the, they were like, we can't ask her to do anything. Everyone else here is so much smarter,

Jacki and Ed:

that.

Sarah:

That's why I couldn't go to school there.

Jacki and Ed:

Yeah.

Chris:

whatever. Whatever. All right, guys, we'll post links

Jacki and Ed:

Thank you much.

Chris:

but wait, don't go yet.

Jacki and Ed:

Okay. I'm not leaving.

Chris:

I'm gonna, I'm gonna stop the recording then, all right, and we're

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